Physics and why LWIR can not warm oceans... Info for a Clueless Senator Markey and alarmists..

[Crick]

The antenna is not doing the measuring...and all that was measured was what hit the cooled instrument...you lose again.

Your claim was never restricted to cold can't be measured by warm. You've claimed all along that photons could not move from cold to warm. The CMB was detected via a parabolic dish at ambient temperature. You lose. Period.

 

[SSDD]

Sorry guy...sub 2k temperatures have been possible using liquid helium for some time...all you need do is pump the stuff through a system...liquid helium just sitting is around 4k...

Of course. But absolutely not with the first discovery.

The first discovery of the CMB by A. A. Penzias and R. A. Wilson was done with a detector using liquid helium temperatures. It was documented in their paper.

You idiot...sub 2k is liquid helium temperatures...you think that moving it through a system is new knowledge...and besides, that first discovery was made with a radio telescope...it didn't detect IR at all...it was discovered via a resonance radio frequency. You are a prime example of how people fool themselves with instrumentation...you believe a radio telescope was directly detecting IR among other falsehoods.

 

[SSDD]

No matter how you dice it, I am the one who accepts the statement of the second law

You are the only one who uses refrigerator thermodynamics to explain radiation thermodynamics. That is so ignorant.

Your claim is a lie....are you trying to displace crick as the biggest lying sack on the board? Aside from your blatant dishonesty, how do you suppose the laws of thermodynamics differ for refrigerators than they do for radiation? It is all radiation whether it is in a refrigerator or the atmosphere isn't it? Exactly how do you believe the atmosphere might bend the law when refrigerators can't? Is there some sub set of the law that only applies to everything but refrigerators?

 

[Crick]

Are you thinking that radio and IR are different forms of energy? Please tell us you're not that stupid. Then explain to us why you think that makes a difference. Cause, again, your claim has always been that photons will not travel from warm to cold, not that they can't be measured when they get there.

And I note you still haven't addressed the 300K reflector dish.

 

[SSDD]

[

But you've added absolutely nothing to the discussion here. No facts. No reasoning. No evidence. No logic. Just insults.

And you continue to lie...you asked for an admission to fabricating data...I gave you two instances of climate scientists stating in clear language that they fabricated data...then you started doing what you do...lie.

 

[SSDD]

Are you thinking that radio and IR are different forms of energy? Please tell us you're not that stupid. Then explain to us why you think that makes a difference. Cause, again, your claim has always been that photons will not travel from warm to cold, not that they can't be measured when they get there.

Are you claiming that radio waves have a temperature? Is that what you are claiming bucky?

And again...I make no claims that are not clearly stated in the second law of thermodynamics...here, let me post it for you again...then you tell me what I am claiming that the second law does not state.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

 

[Crick]

You do not have such admissions. You have statements which you've removed from context and interpreted as you choose to interpret them. Neither fits your initial charges and neither would be interpreted by a reasonable, objective intellect as you have done. What I have repeatedly contended was lacking was a CONFESSION. See the thread of mine - the first organized instance of this topic being brought into the discussion - in which that term appears.

So, pack sand asshat, you haven't got shite..

 

[Crick]

Are you thinking that radio and IR are different forms of energy? Please tell us you're not that stupid. Then explain to us why you think that makes a difference. Cause, again, your claim has always been that photons will not travel from warm to cold, not that they can't be measured when they get there.

Are you claiming that radio waves have a temperature? Is that what you are claiming bucky?

I'm observing (no claiming required for established facts) that both are electromagnetic radiation. As such, radio can be considered as photons and it does have a temperature: E=hf applies to all EMR whizzo.

And again...I make no claims that are not clearly stated in the second law of thermodynamics...here, let me post it for you again...then you tell me what I am claiming that the second law does not state.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

I aced thermo and heat transfer. I highly doubt you have a high school diploma. Don't bother trying to run your insane fantasies on me. They give shit a bad name.

So, since you've repeated your claim that photons will not move from cold to warm, how'd the CMB get past that parabolic dish?

 

[Wuwei]

You idiot...sub 2k is liquid helium temperatures...you think that moving it through a system is new knowledge...and besides, that first discovery was made with a radio telescope...it didn't detect IR at all...it was discovered via a resonance radio frequency. You are a prime example of how people fool themselves with instrumentation...you believe a radio telescope was directly detecting IR among other falsehoods.

You are the idiot. Liquid helium temperature is 3.216 K which is .491 K above the CMB. You are inventing "facts" from your gut feelings again. There is no such thing as a black body radiation emitting "resonance radio frequencies". That is a totally stupid and childish invention of "facts" again. You are a prime example of how deniers fool themselves with nonexistent, invented "facts". You believe the CMB radiation did not strike the antenna of the radio telescope, nor the detector - both warmer than the CMB source.

 

[Wuwei]

Your claim is a lie....are you trying to displace crick as the biggest lying sack on the board?

Nope. You are the biggest liar on the board. Nobody can come near you in your ability for lies and fabrications.

Aside from your blatant dishonesty, how do you suppose the laws of thermodynamics differ for refrigerators than they do for radiation?

They don't differ. There is only one law. You are the one that thinks there are two laws.

It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. [correct] Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object. [only for refrigeration, etc.]

Those are the two laws you quote time and again. The first is a general law that applies to radiation, the CMB, refrigeration, engines, and everything else. The second law works on refrigeration, engines, and other non-radiative examples

It is all radiation whether it is in a refrigerator or the atmosphere isn't it?

That is another lie on your part. Refrigerators don't use radiation in their operation. Just what is wrong with your thinking. That's totally stupid.

Exactly how do you believe the atmosphere might bend the law when refrigerators can't?

C'mon pay attention. They both obey the same law. It is you that doesn't understand it.

Is there some sub set of the law that only applies to everything but refrigerators?

That is exactly my question to you. You quote two laws of thermodynamics from a refrigerator site. You quote two sentences. The first sentence is the general law accepted by all physicists. The second applies only to non-radiative examples. How can you miss something that is so simple???

 

[SSDD]

You do not have such admissions. You have statements which you've removed from context and interpreted as you choose to interpret them.

I provided the entire statements in both cases...there was no context other than that the people who wrote them admitted to fabricating data. You, on the other hand engaged in all sorts of out of context excusing...and interpreting.

 

[SSDD]

You are the idiot. Liquid helium temperature is 3.216 K which is .491 K above the CMB.

You didn't even bother to look before you spoke did you? Why is that not surprising? Here....

New Scientist

http://www.oxford-instruments.com/p...m-optical-2-2k-500k-cryostat-with-narrow-tail

Patent US20110120147 - Pressurized Superfluid Helium Cryostat

You are inventing "facts" from your gut feelings again.

Sorry guy, that's all you. As you can see I provide credible sources to support my claim...you on the other hand decided from your gut that I was just making up the 2k number and went with it rather than actually taking the time to learn something.

There is no such thing as a black body radiation emitting "resonance radio frequencies".

Of course not... I never claimed that they did....as I said the whole topic is so far over your head that you simply can't even get the basics...and because you don't understand you reject it. Black body radiation can be detected with a radio telescope via resonance frequencies.

That is a totally stupid and childish invention of "facts" again.[/quote]

Sorry again guy...the stupidity is on your part...you failed so miserably to grasp even the basics that you can't even repeat what I said...what you are saying bears almost no resemblance to what I said. What I actually said was:

The detector of CMB was a radio-telescope, which like a radio tuner tunes in different resonance frequencies of an antenna which produces an electrical signal, which is amplified into a recording over frequency or a spectrum.

The recorded spectrum is matched with a black-body spectrum according to Planck's law, where the peak of the recorded spectrum determines the temperature (3 K) from which a radiance can be computed by Planck's law. The recorded spectrum is thus translated by using Planck's law into a radiance measured in W/m2, which is perceived as a "faint glow".

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

As the east coast prepares for the warmest Christmas Eve ever, the prequel promises to be warmer still. Today, Washington, D.C., is expected to break existing high temperature records by a full 10 degrees.

 

[SSDD]

Nope. You are the biggest liar on the board. Nobody can come near you in your ability for lies and fabrications.

Feel free to bring forward a lie on my part.

They don't differ. There is only one law. You are the one that thinks there are two laws.

Of course they don't and yet you suggested something about refrigerator thermodynamics as if the physical laws were different for refrigerators...just one more example of the while topic being so far over your head that you can't even understand what is being said to you.

Those are the two laws you quote time and again. The first is a general law that applies to radiation, the CMB, refrigeration, engines, and everything else. The second law works on refrigeration, engines, and other non-radiative examples

Sorry guy..that is just one law...it is known as the second law of thermodynamics...again...so far over your head that you are completely lost. Here is the first law of thermodynamics:

The first law of thermodynamics is the application of the conservation of energy principle to heat and thermodynamic processes.

[quote="wuwi.post13100575, member.54364] That is another lie on your part. Refrigerators don't use radiation in their operation. Just what is wrong with your thinking. That's totally stupid.[/quote]

Who ever said that they did? Are you really this ignorant on the topic? Do you get that matter "radiates" energy? Where did you get the idea that anyone ever proposed the idea of nuclear refrigerators? Just so that people who are watching this can see how badly you misunderstand this topic...I am going to bring the whole statement in question so that perhaps they can figure out how you made the jump to nuclear refrigerators.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object. This precludes a perfect refrigerator. The statements about refrigerators apply to air conditioners and heat pumps, which embody the same principles.

So goober...the statement is the second law of thermodynamics...not the first...it states that heat won't move from a colder body to a warmer body without doing work to make it happen and it goes on to state that energy won't move spontaneously (that means by itself) from a cold object to a warm object....Then it goes on to say that because of this, we can't produce a perfect refrigerator...or a heat pump...or air conditioner...It is the second law that explains why we can't build these perfect appliances....not that the second law somehow applies to everything but refrigerators or refrigerators and nothing else...and where you got the idea about nuclear refrigerators, is beyond me.....energy, and heat are forms of radiation...and the second law is all about radiation and where it spontaneously will go and where it spontaneously won't go.

That is exactly my question to you. You quote two laws of thermodynamics from a refrigerator site. You quote two sentences. The first sentence is the general law accepted by all physicists. The second applies only to non-radiative examples. How can you miss something that is so simple???

Holy cow....could you be more wrong? I haven't quoted two laws off thermodynamics...I have only quoted one...it goes like this..Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object...

And it isn't a refrigerator site you idiot...it is from the physics department at Georgia State University...they only mentioned refrigerators in an attempt to put the second law of thermodynamics into a real world context....The second law applies to all forms of energy...

 

[Crick]

Black body radiation can be detected with a radio telescope via resonance frequencies.

Only for temperatures so low the EM frequency gets into the radio band. Radio receivers do NOT respond to IR.

 

[jc456]

Winter heat wave to bring threat of tornadoes to Deep South

Chicago may be close to the 1982 records. That's a damn long time of cold don't you think?

 

[jc456]

Sorry guy...sub 2k temperatures have been possible using liquid helium for some time...all you need do is pump the stuff through a system...liquid helium just sitting is around 4k...

Of course. But absolutely not with the first discovery.

The first discovery of the CMB by A. A. Penzias and R. A. Wilson was done with a detector using liquid helium temperatures. It was documented in their paper.

The antenna is not doing the measuring...and all that was measured was what hit the cooled instrument...you lose again.

Yes. It hit the antenna before it was measured. But nevertheless....
Thermal radiation from the 2.7 K source must have hit huge antennas at 300 K.
That proves that radiation energy can move from a cold object to a warmer one.

didn't SSDD state they needed liquid helium? You said but not the first one, and then post up the first one showing liquid helium. Too funny. dude. just sitting here and laughing at that one.

 

[jc456]

As the east coast prepares for the warmest Christmas Eve ever, the prequel promises to be warmer still. Today, Washington, D.C., is expected to break existing high temperature records by a full 10 degrees.

finally no nut stomping freeze for christmas. yahoo. about time, since the 1980s. been that damn cold for that long.

 

[Wuwei]

You didn't even bother to look before you spoke did you? Why is that not surprising? Here....

It is quite obvious that you don't know the difference between the temperature of Helium at atmospheric pressure (3.216) and pumped He at lower pressure (as low as 1 K).
He at atmospheric pressure was used in the earlier CMB experiments. Pumped He is what you are referring to and was used in the later CMB experiments.

Sorry guy, that's all you. As you can see I provide credible sources to support my claim...you on the other hand decided from your gut that I was just making up the 2k number and went with it rather than actually taking the time to learn something.

You are confused about the actual experiments. Let me reword it.
The first discovery of the CMB by A. A. Penzias and R. A. Wilson was done with a detector using liquid helium at atmospheric pressures and 3.216 K. It was documented in their paper.
Yes you were thinking from your gut, but it should be clear now what the experiment actually was.

 

[Wuwei]

The detector of CMB was a radio-telescope, which like a radio tuner tunes in different resonance frequencies of an antenna which produces an electrical signal, which is amplified into a recording over frequency or a spectrum.

The recorded spectrum is matched with a black-body spectrum according to Planck's law, where the peak of the recorded spectrum determines the temperature (3 K) from which a radiance can be computed by Planck's law. The recorded spectrum is thus translated by using Planck's law into a radiance measured in W/m2, which is perceived as a "faint glow".

Yes that's exactly how a maser works. Of course before the CMB hits the maser, the CMB first hits the antenna dish and is focused on the maser.Of course if there were no focusing dish, the CMB would be extremely weak or impossible to measure.

 

[Wuwei]

Of course they don't and yet you suggested something about refrigerator thermodynamics as if the physical laws were different for refrigerators...just one more example of the while topic being so far over your head that you can't even understand what is being said to you.

Nope, you are saying that the first law is denying accepted concepts of radiation physics.

Here is the first law of thermodynamics:
blah blah blah

So what? You are confused again. We are talking about the second law.

Who ever said that they did? Are you really this ignorant on the topic? Do you get that matter "radiates" energy? Where did you get the idea that anyone ever proposed the idea of nuclear refrigerators? Just so that people who are watching this can see how badly you misunderstand this topic...I am going to bring the whole statement in question so that perhaps they can figure out how you made the jump to nuclear refrigerators.

C'mon. Quit the lying. That's your idea not mine. Now you want to talk about nuclear refrigerators!!! The term “nuclear” in the context of energy refers to atomic energy. You don't know that?

.it states that heat won't move from a colder body to a warmer body without doing work to make it happen

That is correct.

and it goes on to state that energy won't move spontaneously (that means by itself) from a cold object to a warm object.

That is only in the case of refrigerators. A counterexample is that thermal radiation energy can can move from an object at any temperature to an object at any other temperature. If you disagree please cite a source on radiation physics not refrigerator phyisics.

Then it goes on to say that because of this, we can't produce a perfect refrigerator...or a heat pump...or air conditioner...It is the second law that explains why we can't build these perfect appliances....not that the second law somehow applies to everything but refrigerators or refrigerators and nothing else...and where you got the idea about nuclear refrigerators, is beyond me.....energy, and heat are forms of radiation...and the second law is all about radiation and where it spontaneously will go and where it spontaneously won't go.

Yes as I said the whole section was about refrigeration. That last sentence was not intended to involve radiation.

I haven't quoted two laws off thermodynamics...I have only quoted one...it goes like this..Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object...

The second sentence is not part of the first law. It does not apply to radiation.

And it isn't a refrigerator site you idiot...it is from the physics department at Georgia State University...they only mentioned refrigerators in an attempt to put the second law of thermodynamics into a real world context....The second law applies to all forms of energy

Then why is it titled Second Law: Refrigerator

If you think that radiant energy cannot move from a cold object to a hot object, what is there to keep the photons of the cold object from striking the hot object. I heard others talk about your belief in smart photons, but I want to hear it from you.