Peaceful Muslims. A very touching article.

[NightTrain]

Jordan's dilemma over 'honour killings'
By Clare Murphy
BBC News Online

"A woman is like an olive tree. When its branch catches woodworm, it has to be chopped off so that society stays clean and pure."
So declared one tribal leader when pressed on the issue of "honour killings" in Jordan, where approximately every two weeks a woman is killed by a male relative because of the shame she has brought upon her family by an alleged sexual transgression - "sins" which include being raped.

Her killer will, on average, receive a sentence of some six months' imprisonment.

Latest efforts to impose a harsher penalty on men who kill their daughters and sisters suffered a fresh setback in parliament this week, after deputies refused to sanction an amendment to the penal code.

The day after parliament sat, three brothers hacked to death their two sisters with axes "to cleanse the family honour".

Parliament's failure to approve the amendment is likely to be a disappointment for Jordan's King Abdullah, who is keen to present his country to the outside world as a pioneering model for reform and a beacon of moderate Islam.

It is widely agreed that the root and cause of honour killing is a complex, historical phenomenon which has no justification in Islam's holy book, the Koran, and which has also been known to occur elsewhere in the world and among other religions.

Nonetheless, it is the insistence within Islamic culture of the need to preserve women's purity - and the disgrace that any stain on this purity may bring upon the family - that appears to be making it so tough in Jordan to stamp out the crime and to bring their perpetrators to court on murder charges.

Identity issues

The issue was poignantly brought to international attention earlier this year with the publication of the book Forbidden Love by Norma Khouri, who wrote a tribute to her best friend Dalia - killed by her father in Amman after she started an affair with a Christian boy.

Dalia's case may have focused minds, but since her death dozens of other women have been killed at the hands of fathers and brothers.

Those found guilty of such killings rarely receive sentences longer than one year, and many serve terms of one month. They tend to be sentenced under legislation which reduces sentences for crimes committed in a "fit of rage" sparked by an "unlawful action" on the part of the victim.

According to campaigning journalist Rana Husseini, actions such as leaving the family home for a period, or uttering words such as "This is my life. I am free to do as I choose" were all considered unlawful acts in verdicts on honour killings issued last year.


For the deputies who rejected the amendments, invoking harsher punishments against the perpetrators threatens the very fabric of conservative Jordanian society. Lenient sentencing, they argue, dissuades women from committing "sin" in the first place.
"It's also a question of culture and identity," says Adab Saoud, one of six female deputies who holds her seat thanks to a royal-imposed quota and one of the MPs who voted against the bill.

"Obviously these killings are wrong and against our religion. But the notion of honour is a very important one in our society. And we need to accept that."

Ms Husseini agrees that Jordan's cultural identity is proving a sticking point in the campaign to change the law.

"One of the main problems with the debate over the past few years are the terms which were set. The king told parliament they should look at this because Jordan was being criticised by the West.

"It was the wrong way to present it, because it seemed as though the West was being allowed to impose itself on our sovereign affairs. And that got people's backs up. "

Victimhood

Curiously, when it comes to determining who is ultimately to blame for the killing of young women by their male relatives, there is reluctance to point the finger at the men themselves.

"I know it would be much simpler and easier if there were certain types of men who did this," said Norma Khouri shortly after her book was published. "But Dalia's father was not a cruel monster - in many ways, he was a typical Arab man, just like my dad."

Ms Husseini goes as far as talking about the men as being themselves "victims".

"It is so hard to understand the extent of the social, cultural and traditional pressures on these men. They are constantly told the family honour is at stake, they are virtually blackmailed."

Female relatives also play a role in the murder of their daughters, sisters and nieces.

Many do so because they are scared they will be tarred with the same brush if they refuse to co-operate, others because they too believe the family honour has been disgraced.

Rania Arafat, who lived in Amman, might have turned 27 this year if her two aunts had not turned up at her door one morning to say they had arranged a secret meeting with her boyfriend, with whom she had been conducting an illicit affair.

When the three arrived at the supposed rendezvous point, the aunts stepped aside and Rania was shot in the head by her brother.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/3094736.stm

Published: 2003/09/10 11:59:11 GMT

 

[Dawoud]

This is my first posting on this message board.
Im muslim as is my wife I wanted you to know that many of the problems with and in Islam today are cultural not religous.
Nothing in the Koran says women are to be treated like property or not educated or held as chattle.
My wife has a masters degree in physics and taught at Mohammed V university in Rabat Morocco for 9 years.
Her family are doctors engineers and teachers and none of them would ever subscribe to the terrable form of Islam expounded by the Wahabis (Saudis)
Her mother is a very pious woman who goes to mecca every year and last december when we were in Morocco she told me and i quote" Ossama Ben Laudin did great harm to Islam"
But saddly heres the problem thoe 10% of the people in Morocco have masters degrees .
60% cannot read or write. This leads to them being told what to think and how to interpert the Quran by (and im sorry to say this) hate filled clerics in the Mosques.
Islam need a reformation just like the christian church went thru in the last few hundred years. And there is alot of hope for this because of the internet and the fact that so many people in the middle east are under 30 and want change.

 

[NightTrain]

Good post, Dawoud.

As a person who has access to people that know what's going on in the muslim community, would you please forward these questions to the appropriate persons :

How does Islam receive such attacks such as the USS Cole and 9/11?

I chose those two because one is a legitimate military target and one is a civilian target.

Any light you can shed upon my questions will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

NT

 

[Dawoud]

I really cant say how all Muslims feel about the 2 attacks you speak of there are 1.3 billion of us.
I can only tell you how I feel about it
My father was in the US navy in WW2 his ship was torpedoed and he lost both his legs defending this country. Any attack on any US service peole should be stopped and whoever does it should be punnished.
And the WTC
Let me quote you something from the Quran


"if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."

As far as im concerned if late at nite when all is quiet and you listen to the silence you can hear them building a special room in Hell for Ossam and his cohorts

 

[NightTrain]

As far as im concerned if late at nite when all is quiet and you listen to the silence you can hear them building a special room in Hell for Ossam and his cohorts

Amen.

Agreed wholeheartedly, and welcome aboard!

There are many more questions that will be posed to you, should you chose to stick around, I am sure. Please do not take them personally, as many of us have virtually no background with Islam and we are genuinely ignorant of the customs and beliefs of your religion.

Again, welcome aboard and please feel free to jump in to any topic you wish to. Generally speaking, most of us here will be polite and considerate.

NT

 

[NightTrain]

P.S. - Please extend my gratitude to your Father for his service to this great country of ours. My Grandfather was severely wounded on Okinawa during WWII and I spent countless hours on his knee, listening to his war stories. I'm sure you can relate.

 

[janeeng]

Dawoud, yes, welcome to the board! I think you can spread some knowledge here and answer some questions for those that don't understand muslims! Thanks for that post! i think I can open my eyes a little after that.

I have to agree with you, that it's not the religion - for instance, after 9/11 - my Son's friend at that time, he was Muslim and Arab - his Mom didn't seem very welcomed at the school anymore, and I would see that the Mother's there would talk about her when she arrived - I felt bad for her - so one day I went up to her and asked her how she felt about it all - her words were very touching. She told me, she didn't do this, she wasn't part of 9/11 yet people blame her because of her background, she gets threats, and people look down on her - she said she didn't believe in Bin Laden's ways, and her family didn't either - she told me more things, but I really felt bad - i then decided to save her from the crap at the school and took over taking her Son to school - now I was the target, but they knew, if they said something to me, I would blast them right back! I couldn't stand half of them anyway - they didn't give this woman a chance, to see the real her and just cut her off - for what I did, they came over one day with a Turkey, it was nearly Thanksgiving - a big turkey and she thanked me for all I did and said her Husband wanted us to enjoy a dinner. I thought that was so sincere and was greatful! Unfortanately, this year, they moved - I don't know the answers why, but I just feel it's because of all the hate! so, I try, even though there are times I get mad, but I will say there are good out there, and you can't blame a person because of who or what they are!

 

[janeeng]

That was some story! you seem to have it all together and a happy marriage! that's a great thing!!!!

Thanks for that information, though you didn't have to put all that in there...it was nice to read something as nice as that for once.

Glad your here!

 

[Spirit_Soul]

But on the religious freedom part: It depends on where you were in morrocco.

I had a friend who went there and she wore shorts in the street. They were throwing stones at her and calling her names. She came back to U.S.A after a week or so by catching the next flight home.

Also, about people not hating America... May be their family does not hate America, but most people in the arab world are basically brainwashed to hate America, just like we are getting brainwashed here to hate Iraq.

 

[Dawoud]

I have been from one end of Morocco to the other.
And yes i have heard similar storys about other western women having things like happened to your friend.
She was in a different culture they wernt going into hers she was going into theirs.....maybe she should of done alittle reading before she wore the shorts and just had a tad more respect for the culture and religion she was visiting.
There are jerks in all cultures.
Up at the university i work at after 9-11 someone i worked with was very very rude to my wife when she came to pick me up from work she was dressed in totally western clothing and the only thing she was guilty of was being muslim.
My boss had to pull me away from him i was in the process of whipping his fat redneck ass.
they transferred him to another department the next day.

 

[Dawoud]

[
Also, about people not hating America... May be their family does not hate America, but most people in the arab world are basically brainwashed to hate America, just like we are getting brainwashed here to hate Iraq. [/B]

Ive been thinking about you statement about the "Arab World"
There are 240 million arabs and 1.3 BILLION muslims
Are you saying all these muslims hate America?
I thought this board was about muslims not just arabs

 

[Spirit_Soul]

oops sorry, my focus was on the "arabs" not on the Muslim culture, just like their focus is mainly on America and not on Christianity.

 

[LOSER72555]

The problem is not arabs, because arabs who come to the west usually fit in well with the west. The problem is that of Muslim culture itself, particularly the arab brand, but not limited to arabs.

Look, there is a REASON that a simple American kid who wanted only to find Islam in its purest form wound up fighting with the Taliban in A'stan. The muslim world is either drifting away from its roots into western secularism, or it is attempting to "purify" itself as the western church did in the 1500's with the protestant reformation and the catholic renewal. The problem is that Islam in its most devout and vibrant forms is "purifying" itself into the very core of bomb throwing lunatics and suicide terrorists. The most devout and committed forms of Islam today....., the ones that show their face to the world, are calling for jihad against the West. You may be a secular Muslim in a posh position in the western university system. Great. Hope your 401K maxxes out soon. It is not you I worry about. Your children will likely lose their faith soon, or become completely nominal, just like their secularized christian neighbors However, the fervent burning heart of Islam (usually arab, but not restricted to arabs) is filled with a "holy" hatred for the west and has one finger on a trigger.

I am able to be convinced otherwise, but so far all the evidence says it is so. We haven't seen anything resembling tolerance and accomdation from the Muslim world since the Ottoman Caliphs.

 

[jimnyc]

Welcome aboard, loser!

I feel bad putting it that way, but you made the name

 

[janeeng]

HAHAHAHAHHAHA!!! yeah, I thought Jackass was the only LOSER!!!! sorry loser, and yea, welcome to the board! I snagged you from Yahoo!

 

[Dawoud]

Hello Loser
welcome to the board
Well................I don't have the answer do you?

I do think change comes on a individual level.
Herein Austin quite a few Muslims I know are tired of the hate spewed at some of the Mosques in the area.
Many have started meeting away from them and doing good works in the community for the sake of doing good.
Last month a group of Muslims and Jews got together .went to a very poor neighborhood and did a massive amount of work on a poor elderly black woman home.
This to me is a very good start.
About the rest of the world.................You seem to think its all Muslims fault did you ever consider alot of the hate was earned?
The CIA has been meddling in world politics since the end of the second world war overthrowing elected officials ( Iran 1953) and propping up despotic governments..Saudi Arabia..Egypt.The bloody Shah ........Saddam ...Marcos... Batista..Noreaga....Penochet
Even Ossam .......when it suited their interests.
And your statement about my children.

<<<<Your children will likely lose their faith soon, or become completely nominal, >>> i found distasteful

 

[LOSER72555]

Thanx to all who commented on the name. When it is a self-appellation, there are no needs for apologies!

Thanks for the welcome, as well.

I am not even sure of the question, so I sure don't know the answer. Let me make the point again, though, using a more domestic brand of religion. For example, you don't look for the heart and the future of christianity in the tepid and insipid brand of that religion you find in the local first presbyterian/episcopal/methodist church. Those people would be just as comfortable sitting in a hindu temple or a mosque or a completely secular "feelgood dogood" meeting. Their experience is all about THEM, who they are and the good that they do, and nothing sacred, mystical, or "other." If you want to see a religion in its full bloom, go down to the "doubledoseholyghost temple" or to a local baptist clatche where the preacher is fervent and the people are excited and the academic types are embarrassed by all the hoopla. Those people will literally worry the shit out of you in attempting to proselytize you, but they BELIEVE something. I find them interesting because there are mindless cretins who find it a challenge to parse "Jesus loves me," to be sure, but I have also met some very bright Iif relatively ghettoized) fundamentalists who think they can answer whatever I might throw at them. Moreover, they want to convince YOU that they are right, too (sometimes with appallingly stupid and crass attempts to do so). Those people will be the future of whatever christianity we might have here in the usa. The other types are dead wood, their kids believe even less than they do, and generally dispense with any religious affiliation at all when they leave the house. I know firsthand, being one of them.

All I was trying to say is that the muslim equivalent of this.., the "believing" core, seems to be the ones who are the fanatical brotherhood of lunatics for the liberation of xxxxxxxx, or at least that is the face that islam presents to the world. That is, the closer you get to the "flame" or whatever the animating spirit is in islam, the closer it SEEMS that one is getting to a violent hatred of all things western.

Remarks re: the CIA's history are true enough. I wish we would just stay home and leave everyone else in the world alone. Maybe if we did not diddle around so much re: israel we would have less problems with the arab world.

Finally, I don't know your kids. I am talking in general principles rather than individual applications. For all I know, their form or adolescent rebellion may take the shape of a burkha. Usually, though, secularized muslims are virtually indistinguishable from seularized christians, when it comes to their kids.

thanks for listening to my rants.

 

[Dawoud]

Hi Loser.
I found your post well written and I agree with all you have said.........
In the Middle East a secular middle of the road Muslim like myself or most of my wifes family, If we were publicly vocal about it, would probably be killed as fast as any westerner. This is why so many Muslims don't speak up against the things in Islam they don't agree with.
Its a shame a small percentage of people can high jack a great peaceful religion and twist it into their own mean spirited agenda.
Islam has many good qualitys...and many things that just don't fit in the 21st century.
Im not here to convert anyone to believe anything. To be truthful I don't give a damn what someone else believes or doesn't believe.
If someone wants to go to church once a year at Easter and call themselves Christians .Good for them
Or handle snakes and speak in tonghs every wensday and Sunday nite thats all OK with me.
Or to believe nothing........fine
Just don't hate me for what I believe

 

[aqeelabbas]

A very good article indeed

 

[emilynghiem]

D

This is my first posting on this message board.
Im muslim as is my wife I wanted you to know that many of the problems with and in Islam today are cultural not religous.
Nothing in the Koran says. Thsn women are to be treated like property or not educated or held as chattle.
My wife has a masters degree in physics and taught at Mohammed V university in Rabat Morocco for 9 years.
Her family are doctors engineers and teachers and none of them would ever subscribe to the terrable form of Islam expounded by the Wahabis (Saudis)
Her mother is a very pious woman who goes to mecca every year and last december when we were in Morocco she told me and i quote" Ossama Ben Laudin did great harm to Islam"
But saddly heres the problem thoe 10% of the people in Morocco have masters degrees .
60% cannot read or write. This leads to them being told what to think and how to interpert the Quran by (and im sorry to say this) hate filled clerics in the Mosques.
Islam need a reformation just like the christian church went thru in the last few hundred years. And there is alot of hope for this because of the internet and the fact that so many people in the middle east are under 30 and want change.

Dear Dawoud
Thank you for posting and sharing with us.
And Blessings to you, your wife and your outreach to others to seek a solution to this deep rooted dilemma. As in America, roots of slavery ran deep in treating slaves as less than equal humans with no rights over their bodies that were property of their estates and the banks that mortgaged them. People blame owners who were indebted to banks, just like these men are under this code and arent free to break it either .

I fight this same battle with two major Parties in America who dismiss each other as unequal to themselves, unable to break their codes and admit their faults, denying the valid beliefs and will of the other they seek to wipe out.

I can never know what your experiences are like directly, but I can understand in comparison with political conflicts here that people refuse to acknowledge or change.

What I propose to help Muslims:
1. Agree to separate two groups. The Jihadists who worship Jihad and commit violence in the name of Jihad.
And the Muslims who live in peace with all people under civil laws.
2. Ask Muslim leaders and groups to acknowledge natural laws, such as Constitutional principles of due process, as sent by God so these are enforced as central law. If all Muslims organize by denominations, similar to states in a union, this will be like drafting a central Constitution. So all law abiding Muslims agree to teach and respect due process similar to how Constitutionalists teach. The CAIR groups started teaching civil laws and rights but this should be a requirement.
The Christians teach that the Constitutional laws are inspired or given by God, so why not have agreement with Muslims and Jews that since natural laws come from God, then Constitutional laws and Buddhist laws come from God that are also based in natural laws.
So this would unite more people under natural laws from God.
3. Using the natural laws, unite all the nations and groups that agree to practice due process and mediate conflicts to maintain peace and justice. Then the groups such as Jihadists who do not respect due process will stand out. So these groups can be separated from society to live in agreed areas without mixing with civil society.

FIrst step is to separate the names of these political religions, and not confuse them with Muslim or Islam. If we agree what these terms mean, then "Jihadism" can be banned from countries and it wont affect Muslims or Islam that is different.

Second is to recognize laws like Constitutionalism and Buddhism as universal natural laws sent from God.


Last, when all groups are in agreement, then remove the people and groups who don't believe in following civil laws and democratic due process of laws.

These will stand out when the rest of the world unites in agreement to enforce peace.

I agree it will be like the Reformation.
Where the people agree to live by laws directly ,instead of waiting on govt authority.

And the laws I would recommend are Natural Laws as Mohammad also taught, and the natural laws in Buddhism and Constititionalism.
These principles are already taught and practiced by Muslims already, so now it's time to declare them and Teach publicly as part of the laws given by God.

I pray the Muslims in the world unite to bring peace as a powerful influence to reach more people. Thank you. And I'm sorry for the suffering and sacrifices that you have seen and endured. May these be resolved in peace, righting all wrongs, and establishing true justice uniting all humanity as one.