Zone1 God is a "Christian Nationalist?

[ding]

We know OUR universe began as a dense point. We don't know what came before. If you argue for supernatural, intelligent creation, do you know HOW that worked?

Intentionality versus happenstance. We've had this discussion before. Do you think my answer has changed?

 

[alang1216]

Potential preceded it. The laws of nature preceded it. Both of which existed in some form or another prior to the universe popping into existence. What did not precede it was pre-existing matter and energy that exists as we know it.

But I'm pretty sure you have argued the universe may have not popped into existence.

I have always said that we lack the physics knowledge to know what preceded the BB. If you can explain quantum gravity I'm all ears.

 

[alang1216]

It's not a science book explanation. It's an allegorical description of the fundamental monotheistic belief of a creator. The universe began, not being created from anything existing and sequentially evolved over time.

I don't believe we know there was nothing before the BB and I don't really see any evidence of evolution in Genesis. But I agree it is allegorical not scientific, so like a Rorschach image you can see in it whatever you wish to see.

Vastly different from the polytheistic beliefs of those days. Which is the context it should be read in.

Subtly different from the myths it came from. That is its context.

 

[alang1216]

Intentionality versus happenstance. We've had this discussion before. Do you think my answer has changed?

You never answered the question of 'how'. It is all well and good to say "God said let there be..." but until you can provide ANY mechanism, you are, in my mind, unconvincing.

 

[ding]

I have always said that we lack the physics knowledge to know what preceded the BB. If you can explain quantum gravity I'm all ears.

What from quantum gravity do you need to know to believe the universe was created through paired particle production?

What from quantum gravity do you need to know to believe paired particle production follows the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation of energy?

What from quantum gravity do you need to know to conclude the laws of nature and the potential for a self aware universe existed before space and time itself?

 

[ding]

I don't believe we know there was nothing before the BB and I don't really see any evidence of evolution in Genesis. But I agree it is allegorical not scientific, so like a Rorschach image you can see in it whatever you wish to see.

What we know is that the universe was not created from pre-existing matter or energy. That is not saying quite the same thing as the universe was created from nothing. That phrase is more a phrase of convenience. What it means is that there was no "thing" that the universe was created from. That monotheistic belief (Creatio ex nihilo) is thousands of years old. So, no, it's not like a Rorschach image at all. You keep trying to conflate polytheistic beliefs with monotheistic beliefs. Monotheism was a shift in how man viewed the origin questions; moving away from a universe that always existed with Gods controlling the affairs of nature and man to the monotheistic belief that a Creator created existence and allowing everything to unfold naturally. Genesis describes the creation of the universe and the evolution of the universe (as they understood it) over time in a sequential fashion. Vastly different than what polytheism taught.

 

[ding]

Subtly different from the myths it came from. That is its context.

Incorrect.

 

[ding]

You never answered the question of 'how'. It is all well and good to say "God said let there be..." but until you can provide ANY mechanism, you are, in my mind, unconvincing.

But I have. You just have never connected the dots.

This is a life breeding, intelligence creating universe because the constant presence of mind made it so. Rather than mind being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time, mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world. The physical world is mind stuff.

It is primarily physicists who have expressed the pervasive relationship between mind and matter. The recognition of existence cannot be separated from existence. As Erwin Schrödinger put it: “The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence.” The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness. Everything is information. Information is mind stuff. So that's the how.

 

[alang1216]

What from quantum gravity do you need to know to believe the universe was created through paired particle production?

What from quantum gravity do you need to know to believe paired particle production follows the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation of energy?

What from quantum gravity do you need to know to conclude the laws of nature and the potential for a self aware universe existed before space and time itself?

I think that until we can fully integrate the 4 four forces we can't know what gave rise to the BB.

 

[alang1216]

What we know is that the universe was not created from pre-existing matter or energy. That is not saying quite the same thing as the universe was created from nothing. That phrase is more a phrase of convenience. What it means is that there was no "thing" that the universe was created from. That monotheistic belief (Creatio ex nihilo) is thousands of years old. So, no, it's not like a Rorschach image at all. You keep trying to conflate polytheistic beliefs with monotheistic beliefs. Monotheism was a shift in how man viewed the origin questions; moving away from a universe that always existed with Gods controlling the affairs of nature and man to the monotheistic belief that a Creator created existence and allowing everything to unfold naturally. Genesis describes the creation of the universe and the evolution of the universe (as they understood it) over time in a sequential fashion. Vastly different than what polytheism taught.

Except the writers of Genesis were closer to polytheists than they were to monotheists.

 

[alang1216]

But I have. You just have never connected the dots.

This is a life breeding, intelligence creating universe because the constant presence of mind made it so. Rather than mind being a late outgrowth of the evolution of space and time, mind has always existed as the source or matrix of the physical world. The physical world is mind stuff.

Word salad as I've said before. Certainly you don't mean human minds so what do you know of God's mind?

It is primarily physicists who have expressed the pervasive relationship between mind and matter. The recognition of existence cannot be separated from existence. As Erwin Schrödinger put it: “The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence.” The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness. Everything is information. Information is mind stuff. So that's the how.

Is your physical world different from my physical world?

 

[ding]

I think that until we can fully integrate the 4 four forces we can't know what gave rise to the BB.

Again... that has absolutely nothing to do with any of the points I have made.

1. The universe began
2. The universe was not created from existing matter or energy
3. The universe was created according to the laws of quantum mechanics and conservation (i.e. paired particle production)
4. Which means those laws existed before space and time itself
5. Which means the potential for a life and an intelligence breeding universe existed before the universe itself

 

[ding]

Except the writers of Genesis were closer to polytheists than they were to monotheists.

Clearly the account of Genesis says they were not.

The account of Genesis is a monotheistic account, not a polytheistic account. A creator God who created existence, not a series of cosmic births of Gods.

 

[ding]

Word salad as I've said before.

It's not a word salad by any stretch of the imagination. It is primarily world renowned physicists who have expressed the pervasive relationship between mind and matter and the primacy of mind; Schrödinger, Eddington, Von Weizsacker, Pauli and Wald. Modern day physicists have contemplated that the universe could be a computer simulation. Information is the fundamental nature of reality. Everything we observe and interact with is a manifestation of information.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Modern day physicists have contemplated that the universe could be a computer simulation.

I’ve wondered about that myself sometimes.

 

[ding]

Certainly you don't mean human minds so what do you know of God's mind?

God's exact nature is a mystery. The closest I can come is consciousness without form. God is an action, God is not a thing. God is every extant attribute of reality. God provides reality to every place at all times.

 

[ding]

Is your physical world different from my physical world?

What we perceive as reality is a product of consciousness. The behavior of sub atomic particles - for that matter all particles and objects - is inextricably linked to the presence of a conscious observer. "...The physicist, setting up an experiment on radiation, decides beforehand which of those sets of properties he will encounter. If he does a wave experiment, he gets a wave answer; from a particle experiment he gets a particle answer. To this degree, all physical observation is subjective..." George Wald

 

[alang1216]

Clearly the account of Genesis says they were not.

The account of Genesis is a monotheistic account, not a polytheistic account. A creator God who created existence, not a series of cosmic births of Gods.

My understanding is that the early Hebrews practiced Monolatry.

Monolatry is the belief in the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity. Monolatry is distinguished from monotheism, which asserts the existence of only one god, and henotheism, a religious system in which the believer worships one god while accepting that others, for example in different areas, may worship different gods with equal validity.

 

[LibertyKid]

God's exact nature is a mystery. The closest I can come is consciousness without form. God is an action, God is not a thing. God is every extant attribute of reality. God provides reality to every place at all times.

This is very plausible explanation. Scriptures, whether they taken from Tanakh, the New Testament, or the Koran, when describing 'god' and in order to try to understand god, they anthropomorphize god, or the assigning of human traits to something unknowable. Over time, this creates a belief system that god is actually these characteristics.

For early Israelites and Jews, they attributed, wrongly IMO, attributes and actions incorrectly to God.
Jesus comes and says I will show you god and how the laws should align by being god in flesh. The Jews rejected him. So in two very distinct instances, their view of the OT god, and then the man god Jesus, the Jews potentially mis-identified 'god' both times.

This is why I am not a fan of the modern "Bible' and the attempts of modern day Christians who try and harmonize the OT and the NT. In doing so, this creates hermeneutic hoops that modern Christians try to jump through in their defense that the bible is infallible and all the other attributes applied to the bible, when in fact, the bible never says this of itself. IMO, if you are a Bible believing Christian, your belief system should be entirely based the first four Gospels. Christians can toss out the OT for doctrine and theology.

 

[Meriweather]

Christians can toss out the OT for doctrine and theology.

No, we cannot toss out the Old Testament. Reading the Bible, particularly the translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into English, from one's own point of view and experiences has one blundering through it, missing most of what is going on. Try reading from God's point of view, from love and goodness, working with a people just getting to learn about love and goodness, starting to know God.

Tossing out the Old Testament would be like removing the bottom half of a staircase in your home. It is crucial for us to know and to remember where we have been, and how we have gotten to where we are.