Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[sealybobo]

as I got into my 20,s it became crystal clear to me the world is too fucked up for there to be a god.

See, but that's just it. The scriptures clearly state that it is a fallen, corrupted place, completely different from the way it originally was and the way it is supposed to be. This world is just temporary. It's like a shadow of the real thing, which is heaven. So the fact that you recognize this is an effed up place actually corroborates what the bible teaches, even though of course you didn't mean to do that.

Also, the fact that you recognize there is evil actually corroborates the biblical worldview too, for a few reasons. One, because unlike some other religions, the bible clearly states that this world is under the temporary reign of evil, the lowercase "god" of this world, according to the bible is satan, and that's why everything seems to be upside-down (at least to those of us who recognize things are not as they should be.)

In addition to that, you unwittingly show you believe in an objective, true good, through your recognition of evil. You cannot have evil without an objective good. If you don't have a true good, then evil is meaningless. Here is a quote from CS Lewis on that:

Like I said before god and heaven are for unhappy people. Your life might be shitty but don’t worry heaven awaits.

I know there are a lot of unhappy people who may be suffering but it’s better that they work to fix what’s wrong because you only get one life. It’s short. And eventually we all die. So pain and suffering are coming for all of us. Sadness too. But that’s life.

The goal is to mitigate the amount of suffering. Try to enjoy your life. If something sucks, try to change that if you can.

To me you’re just fooling yourself. Religions people say it’s good that people have god so that they can cry to him. Or talk to him when things get bad. For example if Im drifting in the ocean by myself and sharks are circling, I’m truly alone. You would not be alone. You would have Jesus with you. But would he stop the sharks from eating you? Nope. Could he if he wanted to?

 

[sealybobo]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

 

[zaangalewa]

... So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

That's nonsense. What not is, is not able to be real. And the Dalai Lama will perhaps be able to accept a heart attack the way it is (so he never will get it). You will feel pain and panic. You will pray to be able to breathe. And then will hopefully not a nihilist knee on your neck, because it is meaningless to do so.

 

[Blues Man]

... So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

That's nonsense. What not is, is not able to be real. And the Dalai Lama will perhaps be able to accept a heart attack the way it is (so he never will get it). You will feel pain and panic. You will pray to be able to breathe. And then will hopefully not a nihilist knee on your neck, because it is meaningless to do so.

Wow you really need to improve your English.

You are simply not understanding the definition of nihilism that I provided a link for.

The dictionary is your friend

 

[sealybobo]

I believed everything my parents taught me growing up and going to church on there being a god and a devil and heaven and hell.well there is a heaven and hell just not the way most Americans and the world has been conditioned to think.

Heaven is when everything is going great for you and you have overcome your worst problems in life and don’t have a care in the world,hell is being depressed and feeling like there is no hope for you in the future so you feel like committing suicide,been down that road before,was no fun at all,took years to get out of that unhappy hell. Or have such horrible health problems and are in pain all the time e you wish you were dead and want to commit suicide,have been down that painful hell road before as well,no fun at all.

however now that I am not under the influence of my parents anymore since they have been gone for over3 decades now and have had the chance to look into several different religions the last 3 decades,i now know there is no higher power and there is no devil.people become evil because they were born into evil with evil parents who to them,another life means nothing to them, murdering someone to them means the same as stepping on an ant to us,another life means nothing at all to them somehow,I will never be able to understand a criminal mind how murder is an okay thing for them. Seems like if you don’t have that mindset,sadly you can’t become a politician.

as I got into my 20,s it became crystal clear to me the world is too fucked up for there to be a god.we all want to cling on to the belief that he will somehow sweep in and get rid of the corruption in the world and make it the kind of place to enjoy to live in but that’s just not going to happen.evil will always exist and it will never go away.

why anybody would want to bring a kid into a fucked up world like this one where we have thousands of murders around the world everyday, I will never fucking understand the human race. I can always look myself in the mirror knowing I never brought anyone into this world of hell,how any of you parents who have children can look at yourselves without being sickened by that ,that you forced them to look at this helll we live on is disgusting to me.
.

And actually over the last 20 years I believe Christianity has been weaponized and it is now working for evil. Look at how christians support trump

 

[buttercup]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

So what if someone never gets baptized again as an adult? My brother and his wife are good people. They go to church. But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again. They were baptized as kids. They show up to church. They believe in Jesus.

So what is their punishment for not being baptized again as adults?

Did you not read the post you were replying to? It seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, in different words. It doesn't matter if you get baptized or do not get baptized. Water baptism doesn't save anyone, it is not a prerequisite for salvation.

I'll copy / paste part of what I said to you earlier, and I'll underline the important part.

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by God's grace, through FAITH.​

So do we have that straight now? I get the feeling you are actually asking a different question, one that is answered very clearly in the bible, but if so I'll let you ask the real question you want to ask.

 

[sealybobo]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

So what if someone never gets baptized again as an adult? My brother and his wife are good people. They go to church. But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again. They were baptized as kids. They show up to church. They believe in Jesus.

So what is their punishment for not being baptized again as adults?

Did you not read the post you were replying to? It seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, in different words. It doesn't matter if you get baptized or do not get baptized. Water baptism doesn't save anyone, it is not a prerequisite for salvation.

I'll copy / paste part of what I said to you earlier, and I'll underline the important part.

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by God's grace, through FAITH.​

So do we have that straight now? I get the feeling you are actually asking a different question, one that is answered very clearly in the bible, but if so I'll let you ask the real question you want to ask.

That’s what you believe but every born again I’ve ever met said different.

but I’m glad to hear you say it doesn’t matter. I agree

 

[sealybobo]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

Most people in England may tick the Church of England/ Catholic box on the census, but its really just the club we where born into.
I think most people if pushed would declare themselves either agnostlc if not atheist.

Wholly believe in the christian teaching, but I go on quantum probability not relative certainty. The abrahamic concept of an omnipotent monolithic being as God in Judaism, Christianity & Islam I find totally improbable. Eastern polytheist religion particularly Taoism I find far more convincing.
I do not however go along with the so called evolutionists Universe by accident theory. Far too much evidence of intelligent design to my mind!

I believe that there is some form of intelligent energy I.E. that permeates the universe. In its perfect state in a zero size multidimensional pre big bang quantum state it is perfect. Post big bang to cover the trillions of square miles of relative space it is diluted down to a mathematical intelligence.
So God to my mind is a form of Intelligent Energy.

I'm open to all this. I love it! Great post. Quite possible.

We know so little. Consider a tardigrade. It can't see outside the drop of water it lives in. It can't see us even though we are giants living right above them. A whale can probably look up and see the stars but they will never look into a microscope and see the moon up close. We can sort of see other galaxies but not up close. Hell, we don't even know if there is life in Europa or if there is a 7th planet out past the meteor belt. It is so far out and so dark there it's hard for us to see it without having the sun as a backdrop.

So I won't pretend to know or say there is no god. I just don't see any evidence that makes me believe there is one. But maybe there is. I don't think it would punish me or care if I believe it exists. I don't even think it cares if you are good or bad. And I don't think that there is a paradise I live in for the rest of eternity just because I believe in it or because I'm a good person. I think that's all just human made up wishful thinking.

I'm open to much of it. Can't agree on the "intelligent design" stuff at all though. If one wants to simply equate nature or "Mother Nature" with being a god or gods, fine. Else we've got issues.

And I’m sorry but if are gods favorite species why did he make us so much dumber than we are now? We didn’t start off knowing science and math. That took millions of years.

And when god was making us why didn’t he give us the best eye sight? Why didn’t he make us faster? Why didn’t he make our hearing the best or our ability to smell? Other creatures were given better senses. Why? An intelligent designer who made all this for us wouldn’t have made us so flawed.

And why didn’t he give us the ability to fly? The one thing we all wish we could do.

 

[zaangalewa]

sealybobo

You know a lot of things - most of all this seems to be wrong - but what is your agnostic element? What exactly is the reason, why you call yourselve "agnostic"?

 

[sealybobo]

sealybobo

What exactly is the reason, why you call yourselve "agnostic"? YOUkw a liotiobf thgin - mostbof thenthgin younkow seem to be wrong - but what is your agnostic element? What exactly is the reason, why you call yourselve "agnostic"?

Because there very well could be a god. I don’t know for sure there is not a god.

Just like you don’t know for sure there is a god. You may believe but you’re doing it on faith Not factual knowledge

 

[buttercup]

as I got into my 20,s it became crystal clear to me the world is too fucked up for there to be a god.

See, but that's just it. The scriptures clearly state that it is a fallen, corrupted place, completely different from the way it originally was and the way it is supposed to be. This world is just temporary. It's like a shadow of the real thing, which is heaven. So the fact that you recognize this is an effed up place actually corroborates what the bible teaches, even though of course you didn't mean to do that.

Also, the fact that you recognize there is evil actually corroborates the biblical worldview too, for a few reasons. One, because unlike some other religions, the bible clearly states that this world is under the temporary reign of evil, the lowercase "god" of this world, according to the bible is satan, and that's why everything seems to be upside-down (at least to those of us who recognize things are not as they should be.)

In addition to that, you unwittingly show you believe in an objective, true good, through your recognition of evil. You cannot have evil without an objective good. If you don't have a true good, then evil is meaningless. Here is a quote from CS Lewis on that:

Like I said before god and heaven are for unhappy people. Your life might be shitty but don’t worry heaven awaits.

I know there are a lot of unhappy people who may be suffering but it’s better that they work to fix what’s wrong because you only get one life. It’s short. And eventually we all die. So pain and suffering are coming for all of us. Sadness too. But that’s life.

The goal is to mitigate the amount of suffering. Try to enjoy your life. If something sucks, try to change that if you can.

To me you’re just fooling yourself. Religions people say it’s good that people have god so that they can cry to him. Or talk to him when things get bad. For example if Im drifting in the ocean by myself and sharks are circling, I’m truly alone. You would not be alone. You would have Jesus with you. But would he stop the sharks from eating you? Nope. Could he if he wanted to?

The reality I've seen is quite the opposite. Most Christians I know are happy people, or at least not unhappy. I mean, everyone, no matter what their beliefs are, experiences trials and sometimes tragedies in life, so very few people have a life that is a bed of roses. However, Christians have peace because when you are a child of God, and you know that no matter what, all things work together for for good for those who believe and love God (Romans 8:28) then it changes one's outlook.

It is nonbelievers, that I've seen, who have a hopeless outlook (it doesn't have to be that way but their worldview is hopeless) and just to get through life they have to do things that are temporary fixes to make them feel good, and they are constantly using the wrong "fuel" to try to be happy. Things like money, status, material things, entertainment, drugs or alcohol, etc etc.

You made another flatly incorrect statement in regard to what Christianity teaches. You said: "Religions people say it’s good that people have god so that they can cry to him." No, that is not biblical at all. In fact, it clearly states that NO ONE is "good" - meaning we all fall short and miss the mark from time to time. It doesn't matter who you are, no human is "good" by the standard that actually counts. It also says: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." Which means that God did not come for perfect people. Everyone needs God, whether they want to admit that or not.

As for not getting eaten by sharks, I don't know what your point is? Christianity never taught that if you become a believer your life is going to be a bed of roses here on this earth and that you will not die. In fact, it says the exact opposite. It says we WILL face trials. As for death, we ALL will die a physical death, the bible doesn't say that Christians will escape physical death in this life. It says that this life is not all there is, there is eternity, the question is, will it be with God or without God?

 

[Meriweather]

And I’m sorry but if are gods favorite species why did he make us so much dumber than we are now? We didn’t start off knowing science and math. That took millions of years.

And when god was making us why didn’t he give us the best eye sight? Why didn’t he make us faster? Why didn’t he make our hearing the best or our ability to smell? Other creatures were given better senses. Why? An intelligent designer who made all this for us wouldn’t have made us so flawed.

And why didn’t he give us the ability to fly? The one thing we all wish we could do.

What makes you think He is finished creating us?

 

[zaangalewa]

What exactly is the reason, why you call yourselve "agnostic"? YOUkw a liotiobf thgin - mostbof thenthgin younkow seem to be wrong - but what is your agnostic element? What exactly is the reason, why you call yourselve "agnostic"?

Because there very well could be a god. I don’t know for sure there is not a god.

But you say - as far as I understand this - everyone is with everything what he says always wrong, if he believes in god.

 

[buttercup]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

So what if someone never gets baptized again as an adult? My brother and his wife are good people. They go to church. But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again. They were baptized as kids. They show up to church. They believe in Jesus.

So what is their punishment for not being baptized again as adults?

Did you not read the post you were replying to? It seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, in different words. It doesn't matter if you get baptized or do not get baptized. Water baptism doesn't save anyone, it is not a prerequisite for salvation.

I'll copy / paste part of what I said to you earlier, and I'll underline the important part.

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by God's grace, through FAITH.​

So do we have that straight now? I get the feeling you are actually asking a different question, one that is answered very clearly in the bible, but if so I'll let you ask the real question you want to ask.

That’s what you believe but every born again I’ve ever met said different.

but I’m glad to hear you say it doesn’t matter. I agree

What? No born again Christian I've ever encountered (and I've known tons, as someone who was involved with world missions) says that water baptism is necessary for salvation, so I don't know where you're getting this from. It is not just my own personal belief, it is BIBLICAL.

Let's clear this up right now. Do you remember when the bible talks about the thief on the cross? Remember when Jesus was crucified, there were two other men who were crucified, two actual criminals. One of them was repentant and believed Jesus was who he claimed He was, and the other one was unrepentant and did not believe, in fact he blasphemed Jesus.

The repentant thief on the cross professed his faith and obviously there was no time for him to get dunked in water, but according to Jesus' own words he got saved, because Jesus said to him: “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Also, many people get saved on their deathbed. Obviously again, no time for water baptism then. You seem to have many false ideas about Christianity that are based on false teachings or mere religion, which is not always biblical and true.

 

[sealybobo]

as I got into my 20,s it became crystal clear to me the world is too fucked up for there to be a god.

See, but that's just it. The scriptures clearly state that it is a fallen, corrupted place, completely different from the way it originally was and the way it is supposed to be. This world is just temporary. It's like a shadow of the real thing, which is heaven. So the fact that you recognize this is an effed up place actually corroborates what the bible teaches, even though of course you didn't mean to do that.

Also, the fact that you recognize there is evil actually corroborates the biblical worldview too, for a few reasons. One, because unlike some other religions, the bible clearly states that this world is under the temporary reign of evil, the lowercase "god" of this world, according to the bible is satan, and that's why everything seems to be upside-down (at least to those of us who recognize things are not as they should be.)

In addition to that, you unwittingly show you believe in an objective, true good, through your recognition of evil. You cannot have evil without an objective good. If you don't have a true good, then evil is meaningless. Here is a quote from CS Lewis on that:

Like I said before god and heaven are for unhappy people. Your life might be shitty but don’t worry heaven awaits.

I know there are a lot of unhappy people who may be suffering but it’s better that they work to fix what’s wrong because you only get one life. It’s short. And eventually we all die. So pain and suffering are coming for all of us. Sadness too. But that’s life.

The goal is to mitigate the amount of suffering. Try to enjoy your life. If something sucks, try to change that if you can.

To me you’re just fooling yourself. Religions people say it’s good that people have god so that they can cry to him. Or talk to him when things get bad. For example if Im drifting in the ocean by myself and sharks are circling, I’m truly alone. You would not be alone. You would have Jesus with you. But would he stop the sharks from eating you? Nope. Could he if he wanted to?

The reality I've seen is quite the opposite. Most Christians I know are happy people, or at least not unhappy. I mean, everyone, no matter what their beliefs are, experiences trials and sometimes tragedies in life, so very few people have a life that is a bed of roses. However, Christians have peace because when you are a child of God, and you know that no matter what, all things work together for for good for those who believe and love God (Romans 8:28) then it changes one's outlook.

It is nonbelievers, that I've seen, who have a hopeless outlook (it doesn't have to be that way but their worldview is hopeless) and just to get through life they have to do things that are temporary fixes to make them feel good, and they are constantly using the wrong "fuel" to try to be happy. Things like money, status, material things, entertainment, drugs or alcohol, etc etc.

You made another flatly incorrect statement in regard to what Christianity teaches. You said: "Religions people say it’s good that people have god so that they can cry to him." No, that is not biblical at all. In fact, it clearly states that NO ONE is "good" - meaning we all fall short and miss the mark from time to time. It doesn't matter who you are, no human is "good" by the standard that actually counts. It also says: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." Which means that God did not come for perfect people. Everyone needs God, whether they want to admit that or not.

As for not getting eaten by sharks, I don't know what your point is? Christianity never taught that if you become a believer your life is going to be a bed of roses here on this earth and that you will not die. In fact, it says the exact opposite. It says we WILL face trials. As for death, we ALL will die a physical death, the bible doesn't say that Christians will escape physical death in this life. It says that this life is not all there is, there is eternity, the question is, will it be with God or without God?

You say people of god know but you should be saying people of god believe

 

[Grumblenuts]

Atheist just don’t have a church they feel is the one real church. We think they are all wrong.

So I guess the only thing we didn’t do when we called bs on the religion we were born into was we didn’t go and start a new religion.

Nope. Town Halls should be our choice meeting places and certainly don't need no stinkin' new religion. Both "Church" and "Religion" are useless terms, hopelessly reliant upon magical thinking by definition. We are just social beings with practical needs and concerns best dealt with via public discussion.

 

[ding]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

 

[sealybobo]

as I got into my 20,s it became crystal clear to me the world is too fucked up for there to be a god.

See, but that's just it. The scriptures clearly state that it is a fallen, corrupted place, completely different from the way it originally was and the way it is supposed to be. This world is just temporary. It's like a shadow of the real thing, which is heaven. So the fact that you recognize this is an effed up place actually corroborates what the bible teaches, even though of course you didn't mean to do that.

Also, the fact that you recognize there is evil actually corroborates the biblical worldview too, for a few reasons. One, because unlike some other religions, the bible clearly states that this world is under the temporary reign of evil, the lowercase "god" of this world, according to the bible is satan, and that's why everything seems to be upside-down (at least to those of us who recognize things are not as they should be.)

In addition to that, you unwittingly show you believe in an objective, true good, through your recognition of evil. You cannot have evil without an objective good. If you don't have a true good, then evil is meaningless. Here is a quote from CS Lewis on that:

Like I said before god and heaven are for unhappy people. Your life might be shitty but don’t worry heaven awaits.

I know there are a lot of unhappy people who may be suffering but it’s better that they work to fix what’s wrong because you only get one life. It’s short. And eventually we all die. So pain and suffering are coming for all of us. Sadness too. But that’s life.

The goal is to mitigate the amount of suffering. Try to enjoy your life. If something sucks, try to change that if you can.

To me you’re just fooling yourself. Religions people say it’s good that people have god so that they can cry to him. Or talk to him when things get bad. For example if Im drifting in the ocean by myself and sharks are circling, I’m truly alone. You would not be alone. You would have Jesus with you. But would he stop the sharks from eating you? Nope. Could he if he wanted to?

The reality I've seen is quite the opposite. Most Christians I know are happy people, or at least not unhappy. I mean, everyone, no matter what their beliefs are, experiences trials and sometimes tragedies in life, so very few people have a life that is a bed of roses. However, Christians have peace because when you are a child of God, and you know that no matter what, all things work together for for good for those who believe and love God (Romans 8:28) then it changes one's outlook.

It is nonbelievers, that I've seen, who have a hopeless outlook (it doesn't have to be that way but their worldview is hopeless) and just to get through life they have to do things that are temporary fixes to make them feel good, and they are constantly using the wrong "fuel" to try to be happy. Things like money, status, material things, entertainment, drugs or alcohol, etc etc.

You made another flatly incorrect statement in regard to what Christianity teaches. You said: "Religions people say it’s good that people have god so that they can cry to him." No, that is not biblical at all. In fact, it clearly states that NO ONE is "good" - meaning we all fall short and miss the mark from time to time. It doesn't matter who you are, no human is "good" by the standard that actually counts. It also says: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." Which means that God did not come for perfect people. Everyone needs God, whether they want to admit that or not.

As for not getting eaten by sharks, I don't know what your point is? Christianity never taught that if you become a believer your life is going to be a bed of roses here on this earth and that you will not die. In fact, it says the exact opposite. It says we WILL face trials. As for death, we ALL will die a physical death, the bible doesn't say that Christians will escape physical death in this life. It says that this life is not all there is, there is eternity, the question is, will it be with God or without God?

Christians use status money material things drugs and alcohol too to to make them feel good. I wouldn’t call our outlook hopeless. I’m very grateful I was born to the parents who had me and I’ve had a great life. When thingsgo south, and eventually they will for all of us, I guess you are right I don’t have any hopefor an afterlife. If there is one Im sure I’ll get in based on the person I was.

And I don’t believe your religion the Jews Muslims or Mormons have any answers. I’d like to believe one or all of them are real but I don’t. So I don’t care what any of them say about heaven and hell.

 

[sealybobo]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

So what if someone never gets baptized again as an adult? My brother and his wife are good people. They go to church. But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again. They were baptized as kids. They show up to church. They believe in Jesus.

So what is their punishment for not being baptized again as adults?

Did you not read the post you were replying to? It seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, in different words. It doesn't matter if you get baptized or do not get baptized. Water baptism doesn't save anyone, it is not a prerequisite for salvation.

I'll copy / paste part of what I said to you earlier, and I'll underline the important part.

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by God's grace, through FAITH.​

So do we have that straight now? I get the feeling you are actually asking a different question, one that is answered very clearly in the bible, but if so I'll let you ask the real question you want to ask.

That’s what you believe but every born again I’ve ever met said different.

but I’m glad to hear you say it doesn’t matter. I agree

What? No born again Christian I've ever encountered (and I've known tons, as someone who was involved with world missions) says that water baptism is necessary for salvation, so I don't know where you're getting this from. It is not just my own personal belief, it is BIBLICAL.

Let's clear this up right now. Do you remember when the bible talks about the thief on the cross? Remember when Jesus was crucified, there were two other men who were crucified, two actual criminals. One of them was repentant and believed Jesus was who he claimed He was, and the other one was unrepentant and did not believe, in fact he blasphemed Jesus.

The repentant thief on the cross professed his faith and obviously there was no time for him to get dunked in water, but according to Jesus' own words he got saved, because Jesus said to him: “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Also, many people get saved on their deathbed. Obviously again, no time for water baptism then. You seem to have many false ideas about Christianity that are based on false teachings or mere religion, which is not always biblical and true.

Well I’ve met lots of born agains who ask me if I know where I’m going when I die. I’m sure you know this pitch right? After services your preacher tells you to all go out on Sunday and spread the word.

so these born agains ask me this question back when I was a Greek Orthodox. I explain to them I already belong to a Christian organization and they begin to tell me how they have it wrong. First, keep in mind the Greek Orthodox wrote the Bible. So it’s funny for these American born agains to tell us we have it wrong.

And they have all pointed out how it’s not good enough that I was baptized as a child. You have to do it again, and then they rope you in to their born again church.

i know a few people who were born Greek Orthodox but left it for a born again church. And a part of becoming a member, and in order to get into heaven, you got to be baptized.

 

[buttercup]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.