Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[sealybobo]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

Are all nihilist sociopaths or psychopaths?

 

[ding]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

Are all nihilist sociopaths or psychopaths?

just depressed.

 

[sealybobo]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

 

[buttercup]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

So what if someone never gets baptized again as an adult? My brother and his wife are good people. They go to church. But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again. They were baptized as kids. They show up to church. They believe in Jesus.

So what is their punishment for not being baptized again as adults?

Did you not read the post you were replying to? It seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, in different words. It doesn't matter if you get baptized or do not get baptized. Water baptism doesn't save anyone, it is not a prerequisite for salvation.

I'll copy / paste part of what I said to you earlier, and I'll underline the important part.

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by God's grace, through FAITH.​

So do we have that straight now? I get the feeling you are actually asking a different question, one that is answered very clearly in the bible, but if so I'll let you ask the real question you want to ask.

That’s what you believe but every born again I’ve ever met said different.

but I’m glad to hear you say it doesn’t matter. I agree

What? No born again Christian I've ever encountered (and I've known tons, as someone who was involved with world missions) says that water baptism is necessary for salvation, so I don't know where you're getting this from. It is not just my own personal belief, it is BIBLICAL.

Let's clear this up right now. Do you remember when the bible talks about the thief on the cross? Remember when Jesus was crucified, there were two other men who were crucified, two actual criminals. One of them was repentant and believed Jesus was who he claimed He was, and the other one was unrepentant and did not believe, in fact he blasphemed Jesus.

The repentant thief on the cross professed his faith and obviously there was no time for him to get dunked in water, but according to Jesus' own words he got saved, because Jesus said to him: “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Also, many people get saved on their deathbed. Obviously again, no time for water baptism then. You seem to have many false ideas about Christianity that are based on false teachings or mere religion, which is not always biblical and true.

Well I’ve met lots of born agains who ask me if I know where I’m going when I die. I’m sure you know this pitch right? After services your preacher tells you to all go out on Sunday and spread the word.

so these born agains ask me this question back when I was a Greek Orthodox. I explain to them I already belong to a Christian organization and they begin to tell me how they have it wrong. First, keep in mind the Greek Orthodox wrote the Bible. So it’s funny for these American born agains to tell us we have it wrong.

And they have all pointed out how it’s not good enough that I was baptized as a child. You have to do it again, and then they rope you in to their born again church.

i know a few people who were born Greek Orthodox but left it for a born again church. And a part of becoming a member, and in order to get into heaven, you got to be baptized.

Yes, but you're moving the goalposts now. Before you were talking about water baptism. You said (or implied) that the born agains you know say that water baptism is necessary. Which is what I said is hard to believe, because I've never known any born again Christians who believe that.

Now you're talking about something different, you're talking about salvation.

You can't conflate those two, they are two different things.

 

[buttercup]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Again, you're just backing up what the bible says. lol. Good job!

 

[sealybobo]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

So what if someone never gets baptized again as an adult? My brother and his wife are good people. They go to church. But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again. They were baptized as kids. They show up to church. They believe in Jesus.

So what is their punishment for not being baptized again as adults?

Did you not read the post you were replying to? It seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. I'll say it again, in different words. It doesn't matter if you get baptized or do not get baptized. Water baptism doesn't save anyone, it is not a prerequisite for salvation.

I'll copy / paste part of what I said to you earlier, and I'll underline the important part.

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by God's grace, through FAITH.​

So do we have that straight now? I get the feeling you are actually asking a different question, one that is answered very clearly in the bible, but if so I'll let you ask the real question you want to ask.

That’s what you believe but every born again I’ve ever met said different.

but I’m glad to hear you say it doesn’t matter. I agree

What? No born again Christian I've ever encountered (and I've known tons, as someone who was involved with world missions) says that water baptism is necessary for salvation, so I don't know where you're getting this from. It is not just my own personal belief, it is BIBLICAL.

Let's clear this up right now. Do you remember when the bible talks about the thief on the cross? Remember when Jesus was crucified, there were two other men who were crucified, two actual criminals. One of them was repentant and believed Jesus was who he claimed He was, and the other one was unrepentant and did not believe, in fact he blasphemed Jesus.

The repentant thief on the cross professed his faith and obviously there was no time for him to get dunked in water, but according to Jesus' own words he got saved, because Jesus said to him: “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Also, many people get saved on their deathbed. Obviously again, no time for water baptism then. You seem to have many false ideas about Christianity that are based on false teachings or mere religion, which is not always biblical and true.

Yes I have lots of false ideas about Christianity. Know where I got them from? Christians.

And no matter how good the Christian is or how beautiful their interpretation of the Bible is, I still don’t buy it. I feel the entire thing is man made up.

You theists here all seem like the nicer kinds of Christians. I like your spin on the Bible. Good stuff. Still not buying it, but good for you.

Where do born agains stand on cops killing blacks by the way? As Christians what do you say to black christians when they say they are fed up?

 

[ding]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

 

[sealybobo]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Again, you're just backing up what the bible says. lol. Good job!

The Bible says a lot of things. I’m sure I could say anything and you could find a verse or passages that apply

 

[buttercup]

Actually, I just re-read your post and you said that they told you you have to do it again. I think I know where the misunderstanding is.

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation, but it IS something that all believers should do. Jesus was our example.

I don't know if this is a good analogy, but think of it this way. When a man gets married, he wears a wedding ring, right? Now, the wedding ring in and of itself is not what makes him married, and even if he took off the wedding ring, he would still be married. However, it is an outward symbol, it is something to SHOW that one is married.

In a similar way, water baptism is an outward symbol of something that already took place inside a person.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Thanks for that. Truly amazing!

 

[sealybobo]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

This thread was started because I said us agnostic atheists have open minds about the possibility a god exists but I don’t have an open mind to any organized religions. Yet Christians can’t help bring up the Bible because let’s face it that’s all they got.

if all we had was Islam, would you buy into it? Hell yea you would. If you never heard of Christianity you would have bought into whatever religion existed. To me that makes you or us stupid as a species. We should let that go

 

[sealybobo]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

Like Trump said not all Nazis are bad. Good people on both sides.

 

[sealybobo]

And I’m sorry but if are gods favorite species why did he make us so much dumber than we are now? We didn’t start off knowing science and math. That took millions of years.

And when god was making us why didn’t he give us the best eye sight? Why didn’t he make us faster? Why didn’t he make our hearing the best or our ability to smell? Other creatures were given better senses. Why? An intelligent designer who made all this for us wouldn’t have made us so flawed.

And why didn’t he give us the ability to fly? The one thing we all wish we could do.

What makes you think He is finished creating us?

If he’s a god he wouldn’t need to start out with a model t he’d go right to the rolls Royce

If we were gods chosen species we’d be faster than cheetahs tougher than bear we’d see better than eagles smell better than dogs and hear better than deer.

Then maybe I would feel like more than just another animal. All he gave us was intelligence.

 

[ding]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

This thread was started because I said us agnostic atheists have open minds about the possibility a god exists but I don’t have an open mind to any organized religions. Yet Christians can’t help bring up the Bible because let’s face it that’s all they got.

if all we had was Islam, would you buy into it? Hell yea you would. If you never heard of Christianity you would have bought into whatever religion existed. To me that makes you or us stupid as a species. We should let that go

No. God's existence can be known through human reason. So the Bible is not all we have. Plus God's existence can be known through personal revelation.

But what does that have to do with you behaving like a nazi? Are you trying to say your behavior is justified?

 

[ding]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

Like Trump said not all Nazis are bad. Good people on both sides.

So you are trying to use Trump to justify your bad behaviors.

I never said you were a bad person. I am saying you behave like a nazi.

 

[sealybobo]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

This thread was started because I said us agnostic atheists have open minds about the possibility a god exists but I don’t have an open mind to any organized religions. Yet Christians can’t help bring up the Bible because let’s face it that’s all they got.

if all we had was Islam, would you buy into it? Hell yea you would. If you never heard of Christianity you would have bought into whatever religion existed. To me that makes you or us stupid as a species. We should let that go

No. God's existence can be known through human reason. So the Bible is not all we have. Plus God's existence can be known through personal revelation.

But what does that have to do with you behaving like a nazi? Are you trying to say your behavior is justified?

I’m not offending the two people I’m talking to and if you go back you’ll see someone said this was the best thread on this subject ever. The only one offended here is you snowflake. You should have thicker skin if you’re going to argue a case with such weak evidence.

 

[sealybobo]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

Like Trump said not all Nazis are bad. Good people on both sides.

So you are trying to use Trump to justify your bad behaviors.

I never said you were a bad person. I am saying you behave like a nazi.

You’re just a pussy ding

 

[buttercup]

Yes I have lots of false ideas about Christianity. Know where I got them from? Christians.

And no matter how good the Christian is or how beautiful their interpretation of the Bible is, I still don’t buy it. I feel the entire thing is man made up.

You theists here all seem like the nicer kinds of Christians. I like your spin on the Bible. Good stuff. Still not buying it, but good for you.

Where do born agains stand on cops killing blacks by the way? As Christians what do you say to black christians when they say they are fed up?

First, thanks for being civil. That is always a breath of fresh air, especially on these types of threads.

Second, yes, unfortunately it is true that some churches or denominations teach things that are not biblical, and there is disagreement on certain things within Christianity. But there are certain basic things that all Christians agree on.

Something important that I think all seekers should keep in mind is that Christians (like all human beings) are not perfect, we all fall short, and if one looks to humans only, they will always be let down. Instead, look to Jesus, and just keep things simple. Religion is not the same thing as God. Religion (and that is a broad word, I know) can sometimes teach wrong things and can lead people astray. GOD on the other hand will never lead you astray.

As for your question about cops killing blacks. From a Christian perspective, racism is evil and wrong, the bible is clear that God does not see people the way humans see people. Humans look at outward appearance, God looks at the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7) Also, obviously murder is one of the worst things anyone can do, especially from a Christian perspective, for a number of reasons. Jesus clearly taught that we are to LOVE one another, and He even went beyond that. We are told to love not only the people who love us back, or the people who are in our own circles. But to love everyone, even our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-48)

There is more to be said but I don't want to get off topic here or make this too long, but hopefully that answered your question.

 

[ding]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

This thread was started because I said us agnostic atheists have open minds about the possibility a god exists but I don’t have an open mind to any organized religions. Yet Christians can’t help bring up the Bible because let’s face it that’s all they got.

if all we had was Islam, would you buy into it? Hell yea you would. If you never heard of Christianity you would have bought into whatever religion existed. To me that makes you or us stupid as a species. We should let that go

No. God's existence can be known through human reason. So the Bible is not all we have. Plus God's existence can be known through personal revelation.

But what does that have to do with you behaving like a nazi? Are you trying to say your behavior is justified?

I’m not offending the two people I’m talking to and if you go back you’ll see someone said this was the best thread on this subject ever. The only one offended here is you snowflake. You should have thicker skin if you’re going to argue a case with such weak evidence.

Again, what does that have to do with you behaving like a nazi?

 

[ding]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

But that’s just wishful thinking and we are a very primitive creature barely two steps out of the cave.

But people are people all over the world. You think the fact that they all believe in something proves something? I say the fact that their understanding of this thing being so different tells me its all just man made up.

I can forgive my grandmother because she grew up in Greece and had no education. Even still, it amazes me a human can buy any holy book stories. Not just Christianity. Any of them.

look at the Mormons. How can so many people believe such stupidity? It’s because just like muslims they too want there to be a heaven.

Think about our ancient ancestors. Grandpa just got eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Don’t worry gramma you’ll see him in the afterlife. This made our ancestors feel better. And my dad is doing the same thing. He says he truly believes that he will see her again. That’s just wishful thinking.

You are unwittingly corroborating what the bible says. The bible is clear that nonbelievers think faith is foolishness and they think they're smarter than everyone else. Many nonbelievers have a very prideful attitude, thinking they're too "smart" or "mature" to believe.

To me that mindset reminds me of a teenager who is trying so hard to be grown up and doesn't want to be seen as a child, so they have this attitude that they know everything, and that everyone else is stupid, and they don't need to learn from anyone because they think they have it all figured out.

It's trying too hard, and by trying to appear so intelligent and mature, it inadvertently shows just the opposite, an immaturity and lack of wisdom. True wisdom means understanding that we aren't as smart as we think we are, and we know next to nothing in comparison to all there is to know. It is the opposite of pride, which is thinking that we're too smart to believe in "childish" things.

CS Lewis has a quote about this, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek, but it makes basically the same point that I just made. He said: “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Jesus taught that unless we become childlike, we will never come to God. But there is an important difference between being childish and childlike. The latter simply means teachable, humble, trusting God similar to how a child trusts his parents.

Being an atheist is like being the only sober person in the car but no one will give you the keys

Other than your nazi like behaviors towards religion no one gives a shit about your atheism, bro.

Like Trump said not all Nazis are bad. Good people on both sides.

So you are trying to use Trump to justify your bad behaviors.

I never said you were a bad person. I am saying you behave like a nazi.

You’re just a pussy ding

I imagine that's exactly what Hitler said to the Jews.