Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[BreezeWood]

Okay, my instinct tells me it's a mixture of both and highly dependent on the particular circumstances. However, if you have experimental confirmation that our "choices are made even before' we're "aware they are made" I'm all ears..

A combination? Of determinism and...magic? How exactly would you wish into existence bioelectrical potential? How would you wish into existence the movement of a chemical? You cannot.

A discussion of some of the empirical evidence:

Brain makes decisions before you even know it : Nature News

Nature - the world's best science and medicine on your desktop

www.nature.com

.

Our brains are deterministic physical systems, just like all physical systems.

How would you wish into existence the movement of a chemical? You cannot.

.
you've gone off the deep end again ff -

flora hasn't a nervous system, brain they are more than capable of moving chemicals in fact physiology is the premier chemical moving mechanism of the universe and is all spiritually coordinated.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

just as I would have guessed. And.. shockingly... no mention of "magic"!

Right. Magic would be the idea that you can wish physical phenomenon into existence. Basically, our incorrect idea of free will has been magical all this time.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

flora hasn't a nervous system, brain they are more than capable of moving chemicals in fact physiology is the premier chemical moving mechanism of the universe and is all spiritually coordinated.

It is not spiritually coordinated. You wil have to peddle your magical ideas to someone else. You know this.

 

[Meriweather]

how any of you parents who have children can look at yourselves without being sickened

Surrounded by evil, I am certain it is difficult to accept there is goodness. Will it give you any measure of comfort that my children both work to make things a little better? When I remember that like millions of others I have the best kids ever, it is easy to look at oneself and feel blessed. If it helps even an iota, I teach, and I see classroom after classroom filled with wonderful teens. Yes, some grow up and break your heart, but many times that amount make you smile. Hang onto that.

 

[buttercup]

as I got into my 20,s it became crystal clear to me the world is too fucked up for there to be a god.

See, but that's just it. The scriptures clearly state that it is a fallen, corrupted place, completely different from the way it originally was and the way it is supposed to be. This world is just temporary. It's like a shadow of the real thing, which is heaven. So the fact that you recognize this is an effed up place actually corroborates what the bible teaches, even though of course you didn't mean to do that.

Also, the fact that you recognize there is evil actually corroborates the biblical worldview too, for a few reasons. One, because unlike some other religions, the bible clearly states that this world is under the temporary reign of evil, the lowercase "god" of this world, according to the bible is satan, and that's why everything seems to be upside-down (at least to those of us who recognize things are not as they should be.)

In addition to that, you unwittingly show you believe in an objective, true good, through your recognition of evil. You cannot have evil without an objective good. If you don't have a true good, then evil is meaningless. Here is a quote from CS Lewis on that:

 

[Grumblenuts]

just as I would have guessed. And.. shockingly... no mention of "magic"!

Right. Magic would be the idea that you can wish physical phenomenon into existence. Basically, our incorrect idea of free will has been magical all this time.

I've never really thought about it very much, tbh. But I'm leaning well toward agreeing with you now that I've had a chance to chew on it a while. It may well be just one way or the other. Fighting off the notion of there perhaps being more options. I'm confident differing brain and body stimuli result in varied rates of reaction, but all could indeed be deterministic nonetheless.. "Free will" then seems not what I've pictured it as prior, but it's still logically differentiable from having no reactionary decision making power at all. Could be that we all just decide things much faster than our brains tell us we have because that feedback generally takes much longer to process due to it being a lower priority or something.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Two girls. No regrets. My nuts may still grumble occasionally about my branch of the family tree ending, but it's nothing compared to all their whining after getting the vasectomy.

 

[zaangalewa]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

 

[zaangalewa]

I don't think anyone here is arguing for absolute determinism, "universal event causation," or against at least some free will.

Maybe changing the subject slightly, but yes, i will argue that free will -- as we have come to describe it -- is an illusion. Our brains are deterministic physical systems, just like all physical systems.

Elaborate please. "Deterministic" as in the definition of determinism I supplied earlier or are you alluding to something entirely different? I hated philosophy in college. How have we "come to describe" free will?

Determinism isnt just about everything having a cause. In a deterministic universe with natural laws, the same cause produces the same effect. Every time.

What's wrong because it's impossible to find exactly the same position again. Here a totally determined system - intuitivelly we are also in a pure determined system not able to see or to predict what will happen; Watch the blue line:

We have come to think of free will as being "agents" of our choices. This is tied right to belief on souls.

This is not correct.

In reality, your choices are made even before you are aware they are made.

What's nonsense. Everyhting what we percept or thinks comes out of a preconscious psychological situation. But that is part of us. If you change your choice (free will) - then this is also "made even before you are aware this is made".

 

[zaangalewa]

just as I would have guessed. And.. shockingly... no mention of "magic"!

Right. Magic would be the idea that you can wish physical phenomenon into existence. Basically, our incorrect idea of free will has been magical all this time.

"Magical" is exactly this what natural science is doing. You enter the door at home and the light starts to shine in your house. Magic! To produce such a magic is not only free will - but a lot of free will.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Yes, Fort Fun and I have both said as much now. Such pendulum examples are useless though without revealing the short, looping code used to generate them. Sunshine disinfectant absolutely required. Too tempting and easy to slip a "randomly"generated variable or two in there for kicks and giggles. Computer word length being limited, rounding errors accumulate, inevitably corrupting the results as well.

 

[Blues Man]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

 

[BreezeWood]

flora hasn't a nervous system, brain they are more than capable of moving chemicals in fact physiology is the premier chemical moving mechanism of the universe and is all spiritually coordinated.

It is not spiritually coordinated. You wil have to peddle your magical ideas to someone else. You know this.

It is not spiritually coordinated. You wil have to peddle your magical ideas to someone else. You know this.

.
you did not as usual respond to the substance of the post -

flora does not have a CNS - irregardless its functioning properties physiology does not exist without a spiritual component and dissipates when that component is removed and is itself a metaphysical substance not native to planet Earth.

it is you and g-nuts that can not explain your existence - the metaphysical - not the theist that does have evidence and proof you simply try and avoid.

evolution itself proves the spiritual existence.

 

[Grumblenuts]

you did not as usual

.. supply anything coherent meriting response. Unless you find, in essence, flinging mud back and forth worthwhile..
Cut the crap. Define your terms. Quote us defining ours. Really try to explain, reveal, illustrate, demonstrate.. the difference.

 

[sealybobo]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

So what if someone never gets baptized again as an adult? My brother and his wife are good people. They go to church. But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again. They were baptized as kids. They show up to church. They believe in Jesus.

So what is their punishment for not being baptized again as adults?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Assertion:

physiology does not exist without a spiritual component

Basis offered:

a metaphysical substance not native to planet Earth.

Oh really? Where oh where then might this "substance" originate?
How does it arrive here?

 

[Meriweather]

But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again.

Every year during the Easter season, Catholics renew their baptismal promises. Does this occur in the Greek Orthodox Church as well?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Substance theory - .. Oh, Lord have mercy!!

I submit that offering "metaphysical substance" as some sort of explanation of things is exactly the same as Einstein's offering of a "cosmological constant." It's just a fudge factor, revealing that you really have no fucking clue, but think you can just get away with shit by injecting enough razzle-dazzle to lose anyone. Well, sure worked for Einstein. Now physics is hopelessly lost, chasing its tail, while electrical science remains the sacrificed art we really need. No, substituting one fantastic theory for another will never get us anywhere (good) in the long run.

 

[sealybobo]

A study published in 2014 by The Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture at Indiana University and Purdue University found that Americans read versions of the Bible as follows:[17][18]:12–15

1. King James Version (55%)
2. New International Version (19%)
3. New Revised Standard Version (7%)
4. New American Bible (6%)
5. The Living Bible (5%)
6. All other translations (8%)

Main: <-- A list of examples reveals just how shot through the KJ Bible truly is with serious contradiction.

Conclusion
What is incredible about the Bible is not its divine authorship; it’s that such a concoction of contradictory nonsense could be believed by anyone to have been written by an omniscient god. To do so, one would first have to not read the book, which is the practice of most Christians; or, if one does read it, dump in the trash can one’s rational intelligence — to become a fool for god, in other words.

To be an atheist, one need only be able to laugh when such obvious nonsense is offered as being “divine” truth.

Quick Test:

• Who reads "the Bible"? Not most Christians(Catholics).
• Who most believes it "to have been written by an omniscient god"? Christians(Catholics).

For best mental health, remember:

• Please don't read the Bible.
• To protect loved ones from accidental exposure, immediately dump any found laying around directly into the nearest trash can.
• Become an atheist so you'll best be able to just laugh when such obvious nonsense is offered as being “divine” truth.

Well I for one am glad I got to hear from all of them. Hearing so many conflicting takes on Christianity.

Greek Orthodox Church Catholic Presbyterian Lutheran Baptist Anglican Anabaptism Adventism Pentecostalism Southern Baptist Jehovah Mormons Church of England Church of Nazarene Calvinism Protestants.

Each of these denominations got started because they felt their existing church was doing something wrong. So wrong, so bad that these people left the church and started an entirely new religion just the main character remains the same.

Atheist just don’t have a church they feel is the one real church. We think they are all wrong.

So I guess the only thing we didn’t do when we called bs on the religion we were born into was we didn’t go and start a new religion.

These new denominations realized their former organized religions were bad but they never contemplated that maybe the story that church told them was a lie?

If the Catholic Church is so bad all these other denominations popped up, why didn’t the leaders of these new denominations consider maybe the entire story the Catholic Church taught isnt even true? How do you not question the Bible stories when it was the Catholics who first wrote the thing?

 

[sealybobo]

But the Greek orthodox Church doesn’t require members to go through the ceremony again.

Every year during the Easter season, Catholics renew their baptismal promises. Does this occur in the Greek Orthodox Church as well?

Probably. I’m sure we have an excuse why we don’t need to go through the ceremony again.