Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Grumblenuts]

What Grumblenuts for example lacks is knowledge in natural science.

I sure don't presume to know you. You don't know me at all. No one on this stupid forum does. So next time you feel like you just can't resist ignorantly attacking someone personally, kindly eat a bag of dicks instead.

The oldest universities of the world (1) are Catholic universities - the oldest schools in Germany (2) are Catholic schools.

Yeah, no shit. No one's been arguing that particular point but you. Why should anyone care?
Wanna play tit for tat to stroke your ego or what? I hear the Vatican's aid was instrumental in getting the S.S. out of Germany at WW2's end. Oh, bully for you!

How is any of this germane? (lol)

 

[sealybobo]

Doesn’t your soul move on to another rhelm when you die and there you never get sick sad or mad for the rest of eternity?

The body returns to earth; the spirit returns to God, or if you wish a spiritual realm. Without a physical body, there is no sickness, no death. I hadn't heard that we will become emotionless robots, and doubt this will be the case. However, hopefully we will be much better at loving one another, so perhaps there will be less anger? Don't know, because free will is still involved, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were still areas we might butt heads. But I do not know. The only thing I can testify to about heaven through personal experience is that, comparatively this life on earth is the shadow or deep into dusk, and the afterlife is pure daylight. I was still all 'me'--nothing about me turned into anything like God.

Emotionless robots? Hardly. You are gods. You live happy and healthy for all eternity. Now you’re claiming you might get jealous in heaven or sad at times?

Less anger? So you say anger exists in heaven? Now you’re really cherry picking and I don’t know any christian sect that claims people get sic in the afterlife.

Do you see how you are guessing? You only know of heaven what you want to know.

I pointed out how silly it is to believe you yourself are a god and that made you uncomfortable because I kind of called your belief out and it’s kind of silly and I’m sure embarrassing to admit you believe you’re a god.

so you start talking about not being a mindless robot and how there will be less anger and sadness in heaven. LESS? Wow that’s new to me. I always heard NO sickness and NO sadness. Not less.

Do you see why we don’t take your holy book seriously? And I’m surprised you haven’t given Islam and all the other religions enough thought. Perhaps you’re worshipping the wrong religion? The Jews say you are. They say Jesus was not the messiah. And you’re just a spin-off of them.

Again, I’m very open minded to the idea a god exists but I can’t accept anything your holy book says. You may as well be quoting one of the other made up religions. You and I know they made that shit up. God never visited their messiah only yours.

 

[sealybobo]

That’s why your church is the one real one.

Never thought of it like that. Basically, the church to which I belong follows as closely as possible Apostolic teachings, including all are welcome.

Are you kidding you all believe yours is the one true religion or the one closest to god. You’re just like everyone else yet you think yours is special. We can keep going round and round I think I’ve made my point here.

 

[sealybobo]

Without Christians fro exmpoel you would not even know what are schoolls and universities. Without Christians you would live n a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Lol. Read some actual history then and kindly get over yourself.

Remember facts don’t matter to these people.

"These people" - in my words "I" - know a lot about realities and facts. What Grumblenuts for example lacks is knowledge in natural science. And as fas ar as I see you lack an open mind.

Other people have said this is the best thread ever about this subject. Now you christians are coming here insisting your ancestors really met god back in the day. For stuff like that no, I don’t have an open mind anymore. That’s unprovable bullshit. The Muslims know it. The Jews know it and so do us atheists.

 

[sealybobo]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

In this thread we aren't accepting arguments that come from any holy books. What you are saying sounds like you are getting your information from a holy book.

If I start using the koran or book of mormons as proof of god, will you accept the things said in those books as fact?

You completely missed my point. I wasn't making an "argument," I just told someone that the meme they posted was incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe a holy book, whether you believe or not, when you blatantly misrepresent what it says, that is dishonest. It's a strawman.

For example, I am not a Muslim and I don't believe the Koran, but I wouldn't assert that it says something it doesn't say. Why, because that is dishonest and purposely misleading.

In other words, that post was not in reply to the OP, it was simply a reply to someone else who posted a lame meme.

I agree. Why is it so many people say things I can’t find in the Bible? They say the Bible says blacks and whites shouldn’t marry. What passage says that?

None. The bible says "Nigra sum, sed formosa" = "Black I am, but wonderful" - You know this under the slogan "Black is beautiful"

Yep, racism is completely unChristian. I was going to reply to his post where he brought up that issue but I never got back to it. I was going to say that anyone who tries to justify their racism with the Bible is doing something very wrong, and dragging God's name through the mud.

And yet to this day some people still do it.

oh, and the founders did it. Remember you folks claim we are a Christian nation founded on Christian values? Black slaves built this country.

And please tell us what religion were people in Alabama during slavery? How about the people In Mississippi in the 1950s?

The so called real christians did nothing while the real christians owned slaves and went to church.

Today they mock black people and fight affirmative action. Or defend cops who wrong kill blacks all too often.

 

[zaangalewa]

What Grumblenuts for example lacks is knowledge in natural science.

I sure don't presume to know you. You don't know me at all.

I know your knowledge in physics is bad. I know you are not a philosopher. I know you work with defamations. And so on.

No one on this stupid forum does.

You are a rectangle ful of light and you write some scribbels - like all of us here.

So next time you feel like you just can't resist ignorantly attacking someone personally, kindly eat a bag of dicks instead.

... You are doing this continously. I am only a mirror of your own behavior in this case ...

The oldest universities of the world (1) are Catholic universities - the oldest schools in Germany (2) are Catholic schools.

Yeah, no shit. No one's been arguing that particular point but you. Why should anyone care?

You should take care because you make a lot of mistakes in your thoughts, which fit not to the reality all around you. The world in which you live is not evolved in form of the biological laws of evolution. You don't fight with your breakfast every day for your survival. We "evolved" your world. This means: The USA would be for you an unkown place without the immense work Christians had done since long centuries.

Wanna play tit for tat to stroke your ego or what?

tststststststs

I hear the Vatican's aid was instrumental in getting the S.S. out of Germany at WW2's end. Oh, bully for you!

How is any of this germane? (lol)

Did you ever ask yourselve seriolsly why you say such a totally stupid nonsense for example? The members of the private SS-army of the Nazis did not visit church services.

You should by the way answer much more slowly before you say something. Your time scheme fits not with my time scheme. Wait with your answers until I have finished my answers - and do not answer while I still "speak". I have a heavy tongue.

 

[Meriweather]

Emotionless robots? Hardly. You are gods. You live happy and healthy for all eternity. Now you’re claiming you might get jealous in heaven or sad at times?

Less anger? So you say anger exists in heaven? Now you’re really cherry picking and I don’t know any christian sect that claims people get sic in the afterlife.

Do you see how you are guessing? You only know of heaven what you want to know.

You may need to re-read my post. Twice I mentioned, I don't know. Remember, your assertion that we would become gods and have no emotions. Said I did not know, but I had my doubts.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you see how you are guessing? You only know of heaven what you want to know.

The only thing I know of heaven is what I have seen. I laid that out for you--the teeny-tiny bit I know.

Your idea that we will become Gods is ludicrous, insulting, even, and I cannot conceive anything more ridiculous. It reinforces my thought that you have perhaps only one-half of an iota of what people of faith actually believe.

In any case, your conception of heaven is far greater than the little piece of which I had a mere glimpse. I stand by my glimpse, not your fairy-tale like construction guess as humongous as it might be.

 

[Meriweather]

I’m sure embarrassing to admit you believe you’re a god.

As I am not a god and reject the concept with all that is me, don't be surprised if I am not embarrassed. Quite the contrary. I think what you may be experiencing is your own embarrassment radiating back and enveloping you for suggesting such a thing. I have never been so disgusted in my life.

 

[Meriweather]

so you start talking about not being a mindless robot

Again, you need to go back and re-read what I actually said. "Mindless robot" is another of your constructions, not mine. I simply wondered (and cannot conceive of) being emotionless. And I'll add once more since you already missed it twice...but I don't know.

 

[zaangalewa]

Without Christians fro exmpoel you would not even know what are schoolls and universities. Without Christians you would live n a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Lol. Read some actual history then and kindly get over yourself.

Remember facts don’t matter to these people.

"These people" - in my words "I" - know a lot about realities and facts. What Grumblenuts for example lacks is knowledge in natural science. And as fas ar as I see you lack an open mind.

Other people have said this is the best thread ever about this subject.

Not everyone has a good feeling for quality. You should read "Die Rückseite des Spiegels" (The backside of the mirrior) from Konrad Lorenz and the answer from Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker "Die Rückseite des Spiegels, gespiegelt". (The backside of the mirror, mirrored.) I started to study Kant afterwards. Or what was also a very good discussion was Cardinal Ratzinger (now: Emeritus Benedict XVI.) who spoke with a famous philosopher of the 'materialistic' Frankfurter Schule (school of Frankfurt). In both discussions - civilized conversations - you can see spirituality is a 'concept' everyone needs.

Now you christians are coming here insisting your ancestors really met god back in the day. For stuff like that no, I don’t have an open mind anymore.

You never had an open mind - that's why one of my first answer to you here was "bye bye".

That’s unprovable bullshit. The Muslims know it. The Jews know it and so do us atheists.

Sorry - but what Jews like Moses or Jesus said, is also essential for Muslims.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you see why we don’t take your holy book seriously?

That can be easily seen and understood. It is quite on par with students who do not like math not taking their math book seriously. They believe they already know all they need to know about the particular subject they do not care for. So...they leave the math books to those who know what they are doing. Good advice from children, no matter what the subject of the book(s).

They say Jesus was not the messiah.

And so he wasn't. The Jews are expecting a man, anointed by God, to lead the Jews in world leadership. The world will see the wisdom of this leader and the way Jews live their lives. Everyone will want to be like the Jews and to serve them and their anointed leader (messiah).

Christians believe Jesus was anointed by God for a far greater purpose--not an earthly realm, but a spiritual realm. Many Christians sincerely strive to live their lives so that others may also see the value of a life of serving others--and want to serve--not Christians--but God. We see Jesus as the anointed one (another term for 'Messiah').

In the Hebrew Bible (yes, I know you simply scoff at it), there are a number of places where we read that God anointed someone for a particular purpose. (Remember messiah means anointed one.) The anointing of someone does not take away from anyone else who was anointed for another task or purpose.

For all anyone knows--and what many believe--is that the Anointed One (Messiah) in which many Jews continue to look forward, is still just over the horizon. Not here yet, but will be.

 

[Meriweather]

God never visited their messiah only yours.

It does not make sense for someone who does not believe in God announcing what God does not do. (Makes it sounds like there is a belief in God, and only His capabilities are open to question.)

 

[Meriweather]

Are you kidding you all believe yours is the one true religion or the one closest to god. You’re just like everyone else yet you think yours is special. We can keep going round and round I think I’ve made my point here.

Shrug. It seems to me you missed the point. Since I was a little kid (in a family of Protestants, Catholics, and atheists) it has seemed to me that God put saw to it we were all in reach of the place that was right for us as individuals. I further believe that God reaches us where we are, and that the Holy Spirit can reach us in whatever setting he finds us.

Once again, you are shoving your own beliefs onto me. It is you who believes that your conclusions are true and closest to what is--not me. I believe God to be much greater than any grouping--and that He delights in working with all.

 

[Grumblenuts]

You should by the way answer much more slowly before you say something. Your time scheme fits not with my time scheme. Wait with your answers until I have finished my answers - and do not answer while I still "speak". I have a heavy tongue.

Ha.... Ha.... Ha. Slow enough now?
Yes, that's why I suggested a bag of dicks - to match that "heavy tongue."

 

[Meriweather]

Now you christians are coming here insisting your ancestors really met god back in the day.

For those who have met God in this day, that is not difficult to accept.

 

[sealybobo]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

Science is experiment based, it works only on something which is repeatable. It is thus not without limitation. We humans don't have the ability to go back to past, to go to the future or to go outside of the 3D space we are living in to establish experiments to confirm a truth. Worse, we are indoctrinated by our education system to fallaciously believe that we need the so-called evidence to get to a truth. Humans in majority in the very contrary rely on faith in testimonies to get to a truth of any kind.

God is evidenced only as a future event, in the mean time we are all under the covenant which says that humans need faith to be saved. God shows up publicly humans all die. If God doesn't show up at all, no human ever knows such a covenant exists. The only way which works is for God to show up to His chosen witnesses and for their testimonies to flow for the rest of human kind to believe with faith.

We need the same faith to get to the truth of past events with a few historians gathering witnessed facts for us humans in majority living at a later time to believe with faith.
We need the same faith to get to the truth of current events with a few reporters/journalists gathering witnessed facts for us to believe with faith.
We need the same faith to get to even the scientific truths with a few scientists acting as witnesses as only they have the privilege to get to direct evidence using expensive equipment.

A religion is supposed to be the way to access info about the future events, in a similar fashion as how we get to the facts about past events (histories), current events (daily news) and even the scientific truths.

In a nutshell, you believe that science is omnipotent because you are fooled. You believe that testimonies are not a reliable mean to get to a truth, you are fooled as it is used exclusively in our reality. Faith still remains the only way you can reach a religious truth within your own life time.

I don’t believe in being saved because I don’t believe any organized religions are true Or real

consider this. You know Mormon and Muslim religions were man made up. I know the same thing about your religion.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you see how you are guessing? You only know of heaven what you want to know.

The only thing I know of heaven is what I have seen. I laid that out for you--the teeny-tiny bit I know.

Your idea that we will become Gods is ludicrous, insulting, even, and I cannot conceive anything more ridiculous. It reinforces my thought that you have perhaps only one-half of an iota of what people of faith actually believe.

In any case, your conception of heaven is far greater than the little piece of which I had a mere glimpse. I stand by my glimpse, not your fairy-tale like construction guess as humongous as it might be.

I’ll stand by what thousands of other Christians have told me. No, I’ll stand by what I read in the Bible over your eye witness account of heaven.

For your kind of talk I have no patience or open mind. Utter nonsense. And I had an open mind for over half my life. How much longer should I continue to pretend I believe something I don’t?

Just like I accuse christians during slavery of being silent about the anti Christian behaviors going on in the USA, I would feel like I’m not doing right by sitting silent and not calling bs on your fairytale.

im sure not one theist agrees with you in heaven by the way. You say your soul lives for all eternity, you never get sick mad or die and you don’t think you are a god in waiting? Of course you do. But when I put it this way, so bluntly, it sounds ridiculous doesn’t it?

my mom used to do what you do. Cherry pick and explain away anything that didn’t make sense. And ultimately you all know it’s crazy talk and you can’t prove the amazing stories in the Bible are real so you all say eventually, you just have to have faith.

well I don’t. But I have an open mind to logical and reasonable comments. So stop with the Bible. Tall me what the book of Mormons says. And tell me why their book proves god is real. After all he visited them last and told Joseph smith your religion has lost its moral authority and conn3ction to god because of corrupt popes so god told Joseph this.

i believe you peeked into heaven like I believe Joseph smith

 

[sealybobo]

Now you christians are coming here insisting your ancestors really met god back in the day.

For those who have met God in this day, that is not difficult to accept.

You do understand a non believer is not going to be moved by your eye witness testimony right? Or what your ancient books say. So what else do you have? I’m keeping an open mind to any and all reasonable comments or evidence.

 

[Meriweather]

For your kind of talk I have no patience or open mind. Utter nonsense. And I had an open mind for over half my life. How much longer should I continue to pretend I believe something I don’t?

Let's start here, then.

You seem proud that you had an open mind. Someone once told me, "Keep an open mind--but not so open your brains fall out."

Another place we diverge is that I never had to pretend to believe something I did not. I either believed, or I lacked belief. In fact, I cannot even imagine what you went through, because I cannot imagine putting myself through that kind of hell.