Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[sealybobo]

Get over it

Why does it bother you? Jesus was quite clear that he did not come for everyone, because not everyone needs a physician--only those who are ailing. He noted that he did not come for the flock that were peacefully grazing as they should, but that sheep who was lost. Jesus noted that seek and find, but also informed us that no one comes to the Father unless drawn by the Father.

I am ailing and I am lost and God drew me (and others like me) to Him. Why would someone with your good health and no need of being drawn to God begrudge this to someone who is in need?

In the story of the Prodigal Son, the Father told the good son, Everything I have is yours...but I need to provide the younger with attention, too.

Why do you, one of the older sons, begrudge we who are younger and more in need?

I don't want Christianity outlawed just like I don't think it should be illegal for palm readers and fortune tellers to fleece people out of money. If you're dumb enough to buy it, it's a free country and religion is a business. I'm pro business. My family's church tells everyone they should give 10% of their income. My brother makes over $500k. So they want $50,000 from him every year. WOW.

 

[Grumblenuts]

So tell me please: Why exists something at all? Why is not only nothing?

Short answer: Nature abhors a vacuum - Aristotle ...

So if I see it the right way then you seem to think the universe was once a vacuum (an empty spacetime) and this vacuum was filled with something what came from "outside" of the universe. The problem: Nothing what is inside the universe ever was outside, because the universe is flat and has no outside. The idea of an empty spacetime without energy (including the 'frozen' forms of energy) is not very plausible. But this I did not ask. I did not ask you how god made it - I asked you why is existing something at all. Why is not only nothing?

Again, I addressed that straight up. And no, you're not seeing anything far as I can tell. A true vacuum or void contains nothing, period. Nature observably disallows this condition. "Spacetime" is nonsense. "Flat universes" and "Warped space" as well. Space itself is not a vacuum at all. Physicists have stopped describing it that way. They at least recognize that it's filled with what they call "Dark matter" and "Dark energy" now. The closest thing to a true vacuum is a black hole, but even those are vanishingly thin, expelling fresh matter and energy as quickly as they swallow it.

The "Big Bang" was then a momentary, nearly true void. Cycling of the universe, where all collapses into near perfect vacuum momentarily, then instantly explodes and begins expanding again. That's all the evidence suggests to me. Never some sort of "creation" from absolutely nothing.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Agnostic here.


I don't listen to anybody. All I know is what I actually know.

 

[Grumblenuts]

What the hell is sin?

Sin is best defined as "Missing the mark" or the bullseye, or the ideal.

In reviewing their day, many people of faith ask themselves, "Was this the best I can do? What can I do better? How can I improve?"

Sure, sure. So your "God" only needs us all to repent for missing the mark now? Not behaving ideally? My, how cleverly you dance!

Get over it

Why does it bother you? Jesus was quite clear that he did not come for everyone, because not everyone needs a physician--only those who are ailing.

Again, so clever. I'm only bothered by those who go out of their way to bother me, unsolicited. Even then, not always, just in general. No, think of me as your own, personal Jesus. Only I'm just here to discuss things reasonably, on a level playing field. I seek only what makes the most sense.

 

[zaangalewa]

...

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

Give me please a concrete example for morality in nature. I can see for example a healthy behavior and even a kind of moral in context with some single animals in special situations - for example a rat with good eyes, which leaded another blind rat with the help of a little stick. This is for sure more moral than a human being shows, which kills a blind man and robs him, because it is easy to do so. But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

Or let me ask you now in other words: Where do you see what's in the nature stencil for the fitness of morality of the prints of this stencil?

First you wanted 1 example of morality in nature and I gave you one.

I gave you an example with two rats and compared this with human beings. (Higher moral of this rats than moral of some human beings). I asked you for a generalisation for all nature. You sent me a video with a nice deed of a gorilla (very soft creatures), who was educated from human beings.

Now you want to talk about in general?

That's what I had asked you before and again.

No, the universe and planet and the animals typically don't give a shit about morals.

Aha. Now you are on the way into another direction.

Even we cherry pick. To save money we execute people and we lie ourselves into wars and we get abortions when it suits us even pro lifers do.

So you think now all people are sinners and there is not any biologically inborn automatism in case of the moral of human beings.

And if sharks were really smart and killed us when we went in the water, what would we do? Would we stay out of the salt water or would we kill all the sharks? I bet Christians would say kill all the sharks.

Saint Francis for example made a contract between wolves and some citizens. And in general: God made not only a covenant with all human beings - he made it with all living creatures of all flesh.

-----
And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”
-----

-----

 

[sealybobo]

...

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

Give me please a concrete example for morality in nature. I can see for example a healthy behavior and even a kind of moral in context with some single animals in special situations - for example a rat with good eyes, which leaded another blind rat with the help of a little stick. This is for sure more moral than a human being shows, which kills a blind man and robs him, because it is easy to do so. But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

Or let me ask you now in other words: Where do you see what's in the nature stencil for the fitness of morality of the prints of this stencil?

First you wanted 1 example of morality in nature and I gave you one.

I gave you an example with two rats and compared this with human beings. (Higher moral of this rats than moral of some human beings). I asked you for a generalisation for all nature. You sent me a video with a nice deed of a gorilla (very soft creatures), who was educated from human beings.

Now you want to talk about in general?

That's what I had asked you before and again.

No, the universe and planet and the animals typically don't give a shit about morals.

Aha. Now you are on the way into another direction.

Even we cherry pick. To save money we execute people and we lie ourselves into wars and we get abortions when it suits us even pro lifers do.

So you think now all people are sinners and there is not any biologically inborn automatism in case of the moral of human beings.

And if sharks were really smart and killed us when we went in the water, what would we do? Would we stay out of the salt water or would we kill all the sharks? I bet Christians would say kill all the sharks.

Saint Francis for example made a contract between wolves and some citizens. And in general: God made not only a covenant with all human beings - he made it with all animals.

-----
And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”
-----

-----

All I can think of is what if you walked through the most religious neighborhood in Afghanistan. What would happen to you?

Or what do those religious men do to women.

christians used to be that way too. We evolve slowly

 

[Meriweather]

I'm going to start telling you what Mohammad or Joseph Smith said.

I look forward to it. Discussions are about introducing different perspectives.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you believe in the Koran?

Which verses? In any case, I certainly don't begin ranting when someone introduces a passage from the Q'ran. Or, the Book of Mormon. Or...etc.

 

[Meriweather]

We don't believe Jesus was the messiah.

Is this apropos of something I posted because I do not remember talking about a messiah. Perhaps you can refresh my memory and quote the post where I spoke of a messiah?

 

[Meriweather]

So not only are you saying this god visited, you are also saying you yourself are a god in waiting. When you die you will become a god too right

I am not God, a god, etc. And never will be. Why would you say such a thing?

 

[Meriweather]

Seems without bringing up your fairytale book, you don't have very strong arguments that god exists.

The Bible has never had to be my argument--or testimony--for God's existence. In fact, it appears while I take great interest in the Bible, you are absolutely passionate. That is noteworthy, is it not?

 

[BreezeWood]

Jesus taught, Sins are forgiven; repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 'Repentance' means turn from. Of course one must first recognize that there is something they should turn from--and then turn to. We turn from disobedience (sin) to God and turn to obedience to God.

Not in response to me, but thanks. That more than serves to address my earlier question. So I gather this "God" was demanding "Repentance" while Jesus (supposedly his son and kinder self somehow?) said, in effect, Oh, screw that and screw you. You're too mean these days. We don't need none of that final judgment crap from you to worry about no more. I'm gonna go right ahead and forgive everyone. Now and forever. Then he reportedly did. So now God's permanently pissed. Probably just itching for revenge.. Great job, Jesus.

And we're supposed to be grateful? For something we never need worry about so likely remain blissfully ignorant of? Until maybe some annoying Christian randomly bumps into us somewhere and spreads us this "good news"? Else what? We die ignorant, but get "Saved" anyway?

Gee, if that doesn't inspire folks to waste more of their precious short existence "studying" religion I don't know what will!

I wish God planted an apple tree in my yard and told me not to eat from it. i wouldn't and so I'd be in paradise. I should not be punished for what Adam did.

Notice white Christian people in America don't want to be blamed for slavery. They say they weren't around back then. They didn't own any slaves. Well I didn't eat any forbidden fruit.

I wish God planted an apple tree in my yard and told me not to eat from it. i wouldn't and so I'd be in paradise. I should not be punished for what Adam did.

.
and if you were told when you tire of handouts the means for self sustenance would be through eating the fruit, final decision for some would be the same as a&e. a decision reflecting humanity not individuals and may be the same decision made by all beings on planet Earth.

you were outvoted bobo so in a sense you are a christian. by denying freedom of choice.

 

[Meriweather]

My family's church tells everyone they should give 10% of their income. My brother makes over $500k. So they want $50,000 from him every year. WOW.

Must be a church that commands tithing. None of the churches I've attended ever suggested an amount.

 

[zaangalewa]

...

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

Give me please a concrete example for morality in nature. I can see for example a healthy behavior and even a kind of moral in context with some single animals in special situations - for example a rat with good eyes, which leaded another blind rat with the help of a little stick. This is for sure more moral than a human being shows, which kills a blind man and robs him, because it is easy to do so. But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

Or let me ask you now in other words: Where do you see what's in the nature stencil for the fitness of morality of the prints of this stencil?

First you wanted 1 example of morality in nature and I gave you one.

I gave you an example with two rats and compared this with human beings. (Higher moral of this rats than moral of some human beings). I asked you for a generalisation for all nature. You sent me a video with a nice deed of a gorilla (very soft creatures), who was educated from human beings.

Now you want to talk about in general?

That's what I had asked you before and again.

No, the universe and planet and the animals typically don't give a shit about morals.

Aha. Now you are on the way into another direction.

Even we cherry pick. To save money we execute people and we lie ourselves into wars and we get abortions when it suits us even pro lifers do.

So you think now all people are sinners and there is not any biologically inborn automatism in case of the moral of human beings.

And if sharks were really smart and killed us when we went in the water, what would we do? Would we stay out of the salt water or would we kill all the sharks? I bet Christians would say kill all the sharks.

Saint Francis for example made a contract between wolves and some citizens. And in general: God made not only a covenant with all human beings - he made it with all animals.

-----
And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”
-----

-----

All I can think of is what if you walked through the most religious neighborhood in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan? ... Let me first say I doubt that there is no inborn key for morality in human beings - and I think such a key is somehow in animals too. It would had been fine if you would had been able to give me some information.

So now back to your Afghanistan. "... most religious neighborhood in Afghanistan ..."

What would happen to you?

What would happen with me in Afghanistan? Nothing. What should happen?

Or what do those religious men do to women.

You speak about the situation of women in Afghanistan now? I'm not an expert in such questions. Reinhard Erös founded schools for girls and hospitals in Afghanistan. He started to do so when the Soviets had attacked Afghanistan and as far as I know the "Kinderhilfe Afghanistan" is still active. I read a book from him. Very interesting. Some Taliban leaders for example loved the idea to make schools for girls - others did not like this idea.

christians used to be that way too. We evolve slowly

You think the people in the USA, who are not Christians, evolved faster than the people in Afghanistan? Strange idea. Without Christians for example you would not even know what are schools and universities. Without Christians you would live in a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Without Christians fro exmpoel you would not even know what are schoolls and universities. Without Christians you would live n a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Lol. Read some actual history then and kindly get over yourself.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Without Christians for example you would not even know what are schools and universities. Without Christians you would live in a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Great! And now we have outgrown your childish toys.

 

[zaangalewa]

So tell me please: Why exists something at all? Why is not only nothing?

Short answer: Nature abhors a vacuum - Aristotle ...

So if I see it the right way then you seem to think the universe was once a vacuum (an empty spacetime) and this vacuum was filled with something what came from "outside" of the universe. The problem: Nothing what is inside the universe ever was outside, because the universe is flat and has no outside. The idea of an empty spacetime without energy (including the 'frozen' forms of energy) is not very plausible. But this I did not ask. I did not ask you how god made it - I asked you why is existing something at all. Why is not only nothing?

Again, I addressed that straight up.

Larifario.

And no, you're not seeing anything far as I can tell.

Aha.

A true vacuum or void contains nothing, period.

What's wrong - but that's unimportant. Study what's the reason of the Hawking radiation and you will find some interesting facts about nature.

Nature observably disallows this condition. "Spacetime" is nonsense. "Flat universes" and "Warped space" as well.

Good grief - where to begin now? I never spoke about warped space. The universe is flat because triangles in gigantic dimensions have exactly a size of 180° - even if they go back to information of the cosmic background radiation. A flat universe has no end - nowhere is a "border". And in case of "spacetime" separate the word in space and time. That's the same.

Space itself is not a vacuum at all. Physicists have stopped describing it that way. They at least recognize that it's filled with what they call "Dark matter" and "Dark energy" now.

"Dark energy" is perhaps a wrong interpretations of an acccelerating expanding universe. Perhaps something is wrong with then cosmic time stamps they used. And the effects of dark matter were measured - but still no one knows what it is.

The closest thing to a true vacuum is a black hole,

Good grief. The closest thing of the exact opposite of a vacuum is a dark hole.

but even those are vanishingly thin, expelling fresh matter and energy as quickly as they swallow it.

The "Big Bang" was then a momentary, nearly true void. Cycling of the universe,

The universe is not cycling. This would be a contradiction to the growth of entropy

where all collapses into near perfect vacuum momentarily, then instantly explodes and begins expanding again. That's all the evidence suggests to me. Never some sort of "creation" from absolutely nothing.

Looks like nothing was. No time, no space, no energy. "Then" the first plank-time was and the universe started to expand with all energy. And I guess all phycisists know the problem not to meet a barrier but a nothing. But: Why is not only nothing?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Lord have mercy, don't even pretend to knowingly preach physics at me now. Jesus!
Without you Christians we'd likely have "evolved" fine.. just as you did.. by stealing credit for all that the pagans begat before you:

There is a long history of connecting Christianization and colonialism.[1] A strategy for Christianization was Interpretatio Christiana – the practice of converting native pagan practices and culture, pagan religious imagery, pagan sites and the pagan calendar to Christian uses, due to the Christian efforts at proselytism (evangelism) based on the Great Commission.

 

[zaangalewa]

Without Christians for example you would not even know what are schools and universities. Without Christians you would live in a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Great! And now we have outgrown your childish toys.

Toys?

 

[zaangalewa]

Lord have mercy, don't even pretend to knowingly preach physics at me now. Jesus!
Without you Christians we'd likely have "evolved" fine.. just as you did.. by stealing credit for all that the pagans begat before you:

There is a long history of connecting Christianization and colonialism.[1] A strategy for Christianization was Interpretatio Christiana – the practice of converting native pagan practices and culture, pagan religious imagery, pagan sites and the pagan calendar to Christian uses, due to the Christian efforts at proselytism (evangelism) based on the Great Commission.

Nothing new to me. Exampole: Some conquistadores saw in Red Indians animals and murdered them and some men of the church baptized them with fire hoses to make them to children of god. Better some few little rights than no rights at all. Out of such dilemmas grew the importance of the idea of god given human rights, "unalieanable rights. And the real history is by the way nothing what happens in the theatre of your brain. History is damned complex and it teaches us that the shortest way between two points is often a very long travel over wide seas and high mountains and sometimes also through a hell.

By the way. Time to stop the discrimination of the black people in the USA. Because more black people die under covid-19 - I don't like to take a look now at the reasons for this - blacks have the same time to suffer because of people who made them a racist accusation, that so many blacks die. I'm not astonished that 16 times the ignored message "I can't breathe" of white murderers in police uniform causes protests and outrage. And I don't understand anyone who still supports pseudo-president Donald Trump on his way into a racist civil war.