Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Hawkins]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

Science is experiment based, it works only on something which is repeatable. It is thus not without limitation. We humans don't have the ability to go back to past, to go to the future or to go outside of the 3D space we are living in to establish experiments to confirm a truth. Worse, we are indoctrinated by our education system to fallaciously believe that we need the so-called evidence to get to a truth. Humans in majority in the very contrary rely on faith in testimonies to get to a truth of any kind.

God is evidenced only as a future event, in the mean time we are all under the covenant which says that humans need faith to be saved. God shows up publicly humans all die. If God doesn't show up at all, no human ever knows such a covenant exists. The only way which works is for God to show up to His chosen witnesses and for their testimonies to flow for the rest of human kind to believe with faith.

We need the same faith to get to the truth of past events with a few historians gathering witnessed facts for us humans in majority living at a later time to believe with faith.
We need the same faith to get to the truth of current events with a few reporters/journalists gathering witnessed facts for us to believe with faith.
We need the same faith to get to even the scientific truths with a few scientists acting as witnesses as only they have the privilege to get to direct evidence using expensive equipment.

A religion is supposed to be the way to access info about the future events, in a similar fashion as how we get to the facts about past events (histories), current events (daily news) and even the scientific truths.

In a nutshell, you believe that science is omnipotent because you are fooled. You believe that testimonies are not a reliable mean to get to a truth, you are fooled as it is used exclusively in our reality. Faith still remains the only way you can reach a religious truth within your own life time.

 

[zaangalewa]

@ Grumblenuts

You are laughing? Do you take yourselve serios?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

I hear you. I agree with much of what you say and I'm a Christian. Religions are completely a man made construct and can work for good or evil.

I'm 100% convinced there is a creator of the universe. I also love science. So how do I square the two? Because think science helps us understand God's creation.

To me, the odds of life from lifelessness that rises to our level (ummm) of intelligence are incredibly small. Even the Big Bang is under new scrutiny. And even if the Big Bang did happen, who's to say that wasn't God's plan?

The bottom line is that IF I'm right I'll find out eventually. If I'm wrong, no harm, no foul. I wish you well.

 

[buttercup]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

In this thread we aren't accepting arguments that come from any holy books. What you are saying sounds like you are getting your information from a holy book.

If I start using the koran or book of mormons as proof of god, will you accept the things said in those books as fact?

You completely missed my point. I wasn't making an "argument," I just told someone that the meme they posted was incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe a holy book, whether you believe or not, when you blatantly misrepresent what it says, that is dishonest. It's a strawman.

For example, I am not a Muslim and I don't believe the Koran, but I wouldn't assert that it says something it doesn't say. Why, because that is dishonest and purposely misleading.

In other words, that post was not in reply to the OP, it was simply a reply to someone else who posted a lame meme.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Ah, that meme. The image. Allow me to clarify a bit.. No kidding. That was all in jest. And easily the most hilarious joke entry submitted about "Origin Sin" in that post. They were all pretty lame. Hope you laughed some though.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

Science is experiment based, it works only on something which is repeatable. It is thus not without limitation. We humans don't have the ability to go back to past, to go to the future or to go outside of the 3D space we are living in to establish experiments to confirm a truth.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this here. These are mine in response. Yes and no. Science is just a word meaning to study. It is guilty of nothing. Scientific applications, methods, reasoning,.. is what you're critiquing. Yes, well understood to often be slow, take lots of work, and have limited application in terms of checking every possible thing one might want to know. On the other hand, it has been and remains our only serious tool for distinguishing fact from fiction, truth from silliness. And you're completely wrong about it as applied to the past.

That's where it's most decisive, thus useful. Example: say a brutal murder took place some 20 years ago. A suspect was soon arrested, tried and convicted by a jury, relying upon eyewitness testimony, then locked away on death row. A concerned loved one manages to get the Innocence Project to look again at the evidence which now includes DNA analysis. All samples indicate the convict was never even at the scene. Plus the DNA of a different suspect is the only sort found aside from the victim's. This exact thing happens hundreds of times a year in this country. Many, many innocent people have wasted away in prison and been executed. That's how shitty, tragic, immoral, sinful, etc.. relying upon eyewitness testimony actually is. It sucks. Worse than useless. Now we can finally stop doing that and nail the actual bad guys with far, far more certainty.

Well, didn't get very far at all, but it's a start!

 

[sealybobo]

Do you believe in the Koran?

Which verses? In any case, I certainly don't begin ranting when someone introduces a passage from the Q'ran. Or, the Book of Mormon. Or...etc.

But you know about them what I know about yours. Not real. You know it. No explaining that away. You may think they are wonderful passages but any unbelievable stories about when god visited them, you aren’t buying it.

They are man made up religions, right?

 

[sealybobo]

So not only are you saying this god visited, you are also saying you yourself are a god in waiting. When you die you will become a god too right

I am not God, a god, etc. And never will be. Why would you say such a thing?

Doesn’t your soul move on to another rhelm when you die and there you never get sick sad or mad for the rest of eternity?

Thats a god. You think you are a god in waiting. Doesn’t matter how much you or Jesus suffered here right?

 

[sealybobo]

Without Christians fro exmpoel you would not even know what are schoolls and universities. Without Christians you would live n a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Lol. Read some actual history then and kindly get over yourself.

Remember facts don’t matter to these people.

 

[sealybobo]

My family's church tells everyone they should give 10% of their income. My brother makes over $500k. So they want $50,000 from him every year. WOW.

Must be a church that commands tithing. None of the churches I've attended ever suggested an amount.

That’s why your church is the one real one.

 

[sealybobo]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

In this thread we aren't accepting arguments that come from any holy books. What you are saying sounds like you are getting your information from a holy book.

If I start using the koran or book of mormons as proof of god, will you accept the things said in those books as fact?

You completely missed my point. I wasn't making an "argument," I just told someone that the meme they posted was incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe a holy book, whether you believe or not, when you blatantly misrepresent what it says, that is dishonest. It's a strawman.

For example, I am not a Muslim and I don't believe the Koran, but I wouldn't assert that it says something it doesn't say. Why, because that is dishonest and purposely misleading.

In other words, that post was not in reply to the OP, it was simply a reply to someone else who posted a lame meme.

I agree. Why is it so many people say things I can’t find in the Bible? They say the Bible says blacks and whites shouldn’t marry. What passage says that?

what passage specifically says gays go to hell?

The Bible says a lot of things that can easily be twisted perhaps? There are lots of ramblings from the Bible that can be interpreted different ways. For example I say the part about two women grinding and one goes to heaven and one doesn’t means it doesn’t matter if you’re gay. The believer goes to heaven the other one doesn’t. Now most Christians say I’m crazy but that’s how I read it.

 

[sealybobo]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

Science is experiment based, it works only on something which is repeatable. It is thus not without limitation. We humans don't have the ability to go back to past, to go to the future or to go outside of the 3D space we are living in to establish experiments to confirm a truth.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this here. These are mine in response. Yes and no. Science is just a word meaning to study. It is guilty of nothing. Scientific applications, methods, reasoning,.. is what you're critiquing. Yes, well understood to often be slow, take lots of work, and have limited application in terms of checking every possible thing one might want to know. On the other hand, it has been and remains our only serious tool for distinguishing fact from fiction, truth from silliness. And you're completely wrong about it as applied to the past.

That's where it's most decisive, thus useful. Example: say a brutal murder took place some 20 years ago. A suspect was soon arrested, tried and convicted by a jury, relying upon eyewitness testimony, then locked away on death row. A concerned loved one manages to get the Innocence Project to look again at the evidence which now includes DNA analysis. All samples indicate the convict was never even at the scene. Plus the DNA of a different suspect is the only sort found aside from the victim's. This exact thing happens hundreds of times a year in this country. Many, many innocent people have wasted away in prison and been executed. That's how shitty, tragic, immoral, sinful, etc.. relying upon eyewitness testimony actually is. It sucks. Worse than useless. Now we can finally stop doing that and nail the actual bad guys with far, far more certainty.

Well, didn't get very far at all, but it's a start!

I had two people within a year die in my condo. One blew his head off the other lady was unhealthy and sick and she just collapsed and rotted for three days.

This is right next door and across the hall from me. So I go out in the hall with all my might wish for one of their ghosts to appear. If anyone would have a ghost lingering it would have to be one of these two. Nothing. But a believer would have seen a ghost.

 

[Meriweather]

But you know about them what I know about yours. Not real. You know it. No explaining that away. You may think they are wonderful passages but any unbelievable stories about when god visited them, you aren’t buying it.

Actually, I haven't a clue about what you know of the Bible. And, I doubt you have a clue on how I assess Biblical passages. As for the Q'ran: Before I make any assessment of it, I would want to give it the same attention I gave the Bible. This means studying the original languages, the history, and the culture. I spent decades on the Bible and I would not want to give the Q'ran any less attention. Meanwhile, I do know good people of the Muslim faith who are loyal to their beliefs and especially to God. The Q'ran is their holy ground which means even though I am of a different faith when I am on their holy ground or around their holy books and places, I regard them as sacred and honor them as such.

 

[Meriweather]

They are man made up religions, right?

What, you are of the opinion that religions are bird-made or whale-made? Religion is a set of beliefs about God and also about worshiping God. Whose set of beliefs are they? Mankind's. Who worships God? Mankind.

I wish you look in your search of a religion that is giraffe-made, or whatever it is you are seeking.

 

[Meriweather]

Doesn’t your soul move on to another rhelm when you die and there you never get sick sad or mad for the rest of eternity?

The body returns to earth; the spirit returns to God, or if you wish a spiritual realm. Without a physical body, there is no sickness, no death. I hadn't heard that we will become emotionless robots, and doubt this will be the case. However, hopefully we will be much better at loving one another, so perhaps there will be less anger? Don't know, because free will is still involved, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were still areas we might butt heads. But I do not know. The only thing I can testify to about heaven through personal experience is that, comparatively this life on earth is the shadow or deep into dusk, and the afterlife is pure daylight. I was still all 'me'--nothing about me turned into anything like God.

 

[Meriweather]

That’s why your church is the one real one.

Never thought of it like that. Basically, the church to which I belong follows as closely as possible Apostolic teachings, including all are welcome.

 

[zaangalewa]

Without Christians fro exmpoel you would not even know what are schoolls and universities. Without Christians you would live n a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Lol. Read some actual history then and kindly get over yourself.

Remember facts don’t matter to these people.

"These people" - in my words "I" - know a lot about realities and facts. What Grumblenuts for example lacks is knowledge in natural science. And as fas ar as I see you lack an open mind.

 

[zaangalewa]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

In this thread we aren't accepting arguments that come from any holy books. What you are saying sounds like you are getting your information from a holy book.

If I start using the koran or book of mormons as proof of god, will you accept the things said in those books as fact?

You completely missed my point. I wasn't making an "argument," I just told someone that the meme they posted was incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe a holy book, whether you believe or not, when you blatantly misrepresent what it says, that is dishonest. It's a strawman.

For example, I am not a Muslim and I don't believe the Koran, but I wouldn't assert that it says something it doesn't say. Why, because that is dishonest and purposely misleading.

In other words, that post was not in reply to the OP, it was simply a reply to someone else who posted a lame meme.

I agree. Why is it so many people say things I can’t find in the Bible? They say the Bible says blacks and whites shouldn’t marry. What passage says that?

None. The bible says "Nigra sum, sed formosa" = "Black I am, but wonderful" - You know this under the slogan "Black is beautiful"

 

[buttercup]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

In this thread we aren't accepting arguments that come from any holy books. What you are saying sounds like you are getting your information from a holy book.

If I start using the koran or book of mormons as proof of god, will you accept the things said in those books as fact?

You completely missed my point. I wasn't making an "argument," I just told someone that the meme they posted was incorrect.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe a holy book, whether you believe or not, when you blatantly misrepresent what it says, that is dishonest. It's a strawman.

For example, I am not a Muslim and I don't believe the Koran, but I wouldn't assert that it says something it doesn't say. Why, because that is dishonest and purposely misleading.

In other words, that post was not in reply to the OP, it was simply a reply to someone else who posted a lame meme.

I agree. Why is it so many people say things I can’t find in the Bible? They say the Bible says blacks and whites shouldn’t marry. What passage says that?

None. The bible says "Nigra sum, sed formosa" = "Black I am, but wonderful" - You know this under the slogan "Black is beautiful"

Yep, racism is completely unChristian. I was going to reply to his post where he brought up that issue but I never got back to it. I was going to say that anyone who tries to justify their racism with the Bible is doing something very wrong, and dragging God's name through the mud.

 

[zaangalewa]

Without Christians fro exmpoel you would not even know what are schoolls and universities. Without Christians you would live n a totally unknown world. We "evolved" your world.

Lol. Read some actual history then and kindly get over yourself.

I forgot to give an answer here. Sorry. Very short:

The oldest universities of the world (1) are Catholic universities - the oldest schools in Germany (2) are Catholic schools.

source (1): Liste der ältesten Universitäten – Wikipedia
source (2): Liste der ältesten Schulen im deutschen Sprachraum – Wikipedia

In the USA: Take a look at Harvard ("veritas") or the Georgetown university for example.

Princeton: Dei sub numine viget
Yale: Lux et veritas
University of Pennsylvania: Leges sine moribus vanae
Dartmouth college: Vox clamantis in deserto
Columbia university: In lumine tuo videbimus lumen
Brown university: In deo speramus