Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Grumblenuts]

The most immoral, unethical actors I've ever had to put up with in life were all self-identified, proselytizing Christians. Some of the best people I've dealt with as well. But, again, THE WORST. True story. Go figure.

 

[sealybobo]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

In this thread we aren't accepting arguments that come from any holy books. What you are saying sounds like you are getting your information from a holy book.

If I start using the koran or book of mormons as proof of god, will you accept the things said in those books as fact?

 

[sealybobo]

Jesus taught, Sins are forgiven; repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 'Repentance' means turn from. Of course one must first recognize that there is something they should turn from--and then turn to. We turn from disobedience (sin) to God and turn to obedience to God.

Not in response to me, but thanks. That more than serves to address my earlier question. So I gather this "God" was demanding "Repentance" while Jesus (supposedly his son and kinder self somehow?) said, in effect, Oh, screw that and screw you. You're too mean these days. We don't need none of that final judgment crap from you to worry about no more. I'm gonna go right ahead and forgive everyone. Now and forever. Then he reportedly did. So now God's permanently pissed. Probably just itching for revenge.. Great job, Jesus.

And we're supposed to be grateful? For something we never need worry about so likely remain blissfully ignorant of? Until maybe some annoying Christian randomly bumps into us somewhere and spreads us this "good news"? Else what? We die ignorant, but get "Saved" anyway?

Gee, if that doesn't inspire folks to waste more of their precious short existence "studying" religion I don't know what will!

I wish God planted an apple tree in my yard and told me not to eat from it. i wouldn't and so I'd be in paradise. I should not be punished for what Adam did.

Notice white Christian people in America don't want to be blamed for slavery. They say they weren't around back then. They didn't own any slaves. Well I didn't eat any forbidden fruit.

 

[sealybobo]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

TRUE Christianity is founded on a friendship/relationship between GOD and man. Religions are man's way of thinking he is making himself acceptable to the Creator, whereas, true Christianity comprehends that there can be no way for a sinful being to be able to absolve himself of his shortcomings without GOD's intervention.

Doesn't Christianity say that you can't just sit at home and be a church by yourself? I'm pretty sure Christianity looks down on people who say they are religious but don't go to church. Ones who say they have a personal relationship with god and don't need religion.

 

[sealybobo]

...

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

Give me please a concrete example for morality in nature. I can see for example a healthy behavior and even a kind of moral in context with some single animals in special situations - for example a rat with good eyes, which leaded another blind rat with the help of a little stick. This is for sure more moral than a human being shows, which kills a blind man and robs him, because it is easy to do so. But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

 

[Meriweather]

I'm gonna go right ahead and forgive everyone. Now and forever.

Not what Jesus said; not what I said. Repentance, or the turning away from sin, comes first. Once we turn from disobeying God to obeying God we may be assured past sins are forgiven. No need to keep looking back over our shoulder. We can move forward on The Way.

 

[Meriweather]

And we're supposed to be grateful?

Jesus had something else in mind. He said, "Peace be with you." Jesus came to give to us, not to take.

 

[zaangalewa]

Human beings are social animals.

The question was: Why are you not a social animal and you make only the mimicry to communicate?

The reason why I asked was this sentence from you: "We choose never to "study" or "worship" such bullshit. No matter how cleverly served up. Hooray!" ("we" = all atheists in this context)

No, that was not the question. The question was:

What exactly is the reason why you "communicate" with others?

Don't lie. You're religious, remember? Keep that up you'll be going to hell.

I'm human. Thus an animal. One of the social sort. No choice. Built that way. Same as you. Be minimally social or go nuts. Don't like that answer. Oh well. Try respecting nature's teachings about us. Not dusty, old fairy tales. You're welcome.

One man alone is not able to be so stupid as you play to be.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm pretty sure Christianity looks down on people who say they are religious but don't go to church.

Private prayer and worship is as much a part as group prayer and worship. Both, not one or the other. For example, what is your reaction to, "I am very studious, but I never do homework." Or, "I work hard at my job, but I always blow off this part of my duties...."

Have you noticed how much people are admired for doing things half-heartedly, and how they are sought after as role models?

 

[zaangalewa]

Who takes the bible should speak in another way than this atheist is doing.

Another lie. Don't try to throw your trash out on our lawn:

Religion
Trump identifies as Presbyterian.

Indeed some people seem to think he is a Presbyterian or a Lutheran because his mother was a Presbyterian and his father was a Lutheran. My wife is a Lutheran - I asked her: "Do you see anything, what could give anyone the feeling Trump could be a Lutheran?" She answered: "Nothing gives me the feeling he could be a Lutheran or any other Christian!". I personally saw in him always only an atheist. His form of racism and narcissistic darwinism (belief to be a superior human being on his own) is not compatible with the Christian rebound in god. I remember in this context now what he said in public about his own new born son. I never will understand why the USA not had sent him after this words immediatelly in retirement.

 

[zaangalewa]

So tell me please: Why exists something at all? Why is not only nothing?

Short answer: Nature abhors a vacuum - Aristotle ...

So if I see it the right way then you seem to think the universe was once a vacuum (an empty spacetime) and this vacuum was filled with something what came from "outside" of the universe. The problem: Nothing what is inside the universe ever was outside, because the universe is flat and has no outside. The idea of an empty spacetime without energy (including the 'frozen' forms of energy) is not very plausible. But this I did not ask. I did not ask you how god made it - I asked you why is existing something at all. Why is not only nothing?

 

[zaangalewa]

...

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

Give me please a concrete example for morality in nature. I can see for example a healthy behavior and even a kind of moral in context with some single animals in special situations - for example a rat with good eyes, which leaded another blind rat with the help of a little stick. This is for sure more moral than a human being shows, which kills a blind man and robs him, because it is easy to do so. But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

Or let me ask you now in other words: Where do you see what's in the nature stencil for the fitness of morality of the prints of this stencil?

 

[Grumblenuts]

I'm gonna go right ahead and forgive everyone. Now and forever.

Not what Jesus said; not what I said. Repentance, or the turning away from sin, comes first. Once we turn from disobeying God to obeying God we may be assured past sins are forgiven. No need to keep looking back over our shoulder. We can move forward on The Way.

Repentance has always struck me as great, every day word that serves a terse, useful purpose. Not so for your version. Also not so for sin. What the hell is sin? I've seen exactly no one apply that term to anything in real life. Yet you apparently imagine people can still consciously "turn away" from this nothing burger of a notion as a prerequisite for "Repentance," an equally vague concept as already noted. The most common understanding relates to nothing about obeying gods, thank goodness and reason.

REPENT! OBEY! - now those I've seen used for frightening, terrorizing purposes, but mostly mockingly for (sarcastic) humorous effect the past 50 years. But yes, there was clearly a time when such terms were taken as far less funny because they weren't being used that way at all. The real purpose was clearly to threaten, with consequences no one sane would want, into submission. Doing what those mysteriously deemed to be superior wanted - immediately! - keep quiet! - know your place! - no chewing gum in the cafeteria! - behave! - OR ELSE! My own very pacifist dad paddled all five of us kids infrequently, but whenever he felt like for reasons that always seemed completely ridiculous at the time,.. until one of my brothers just burned the damned thing along with the trash one day. Then he just quietly stopped hitting us and our mother noticeably slacked off pounding our backs with her slotted steel serving spoon when she'd flip out over nothing Earth shattering.

I kid a lot about such subjects because the alternative is pointless. Bible thumpers are the polar opposite of funny. Always dead serious because so transparently insecure. Scared of not being taken seriously. Relax. It's all bullshit. Get over it and yourselves.

 

[Meriweather]

What the hell is sin?

Sin is best defined as "Missing the mark" or the bullseye, or the ideal.

In reviewing their day, many people of faith ask themselves, "Was this the best I can do? What can I do better? How can I improve?"

 

[Meriweather]

OBEY!

Perhaps you see obedience as someone trying to curb free will? That is not the intent. Rather, many people of faith more accurately compare obedience to God's law (based on love of God/goodness and love of one's fellowman) to a sign that says Keep Out! Quicksand! The sign (and God's Law) have nothing to do with curbing free will and everything to do to keep one from the dangers of this life, so that we can have the best life on earth possible and become the best version of oneself.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm pretty sure Christianity looks down on people who say they are religious but don't go to church.

Private prayer and worship is as much a part as group prayer and worship. Both, not one or the other. For example, what is your reaction to, "I am very studious, but I never do homework." Or, "I work hard at my job, but I always blow off this part of my duties...."

Have you noticed how much people are admired for doing things half-heartedly, and how they are sought after as role models?

I also notice people have the need to show off and be the loudest to pray or make sure that $20 bill is on the outside of the roll they throw in to the hat.

 

[sealybobo]

...

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

Give me please a concrete example for morality in nature. I can see for example a healthy behavior and even a kind of moral in context with some single animals in special situations - for example a rat with good eyes, which leaded another blind rat with the help of a little stick. This is for sure more moral than a human being shows, which kills a blind man and robs him, because it is easy to do so. But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

But do you see "morality" of nature in general or even in other structures - as for example in an exploding volcano? Is it moral, what had happened with Pompeji for example?

Or let me ask you now in other words: Where do you see what's in the nature stencil for the fitness of morality of the prints of this stencil?

First you wanted 1 example of morality in nature and I gave you one. Now you want to talk about in general? No, the universe and planet and the animals typically don't give a shit about morals. Even we cherry pick. To save money we execute people and we lie ourselves into wars and we get abortions when it suits us even pro lifers do.

And if sharks were really smart and killed us when we went in the water, what would we do? Would we stay out of the salt water or would we kill all the sharks? I bet Christians would say kill all the sharks.

 

[Meriweather]

Get over it

Why does it bother you? Jesus was quite clear that he did not come for everyone, because not everyone needs a physician--only those who are ailing. He noted that he did not come for the flock that were peacefully grazing as they should, but that sheep who was lost. Jesus noted that seek and find, but also informed us that no one comes to the Father unless drawn by the Father.

I am ailing and I am lost and God drew me (and others like me) to Him. Why would someone with your good health and no need of being drawn to God begrudge this to someone who is in need?

In the story of the Prodigal Son, the Father told the good son, Everything I have is yours...but I need to provide the younger with attention, too.

Why do you, one of the older sons, begrudge we who are younger and more in need?

 

[Meriweather]

I also notice people have the need to show off and be the loudest to pray or make sure that $20 bill is on the outside of the roll they throw in to the hat.

There are many of us mice who no one notices, because we are naturally quiet and haven't much, if anything, to give.

 

[sealybobo]

And we're supposed to be grateful?

Jesus had something else in mind. He said, "Peace be with you." Jesus came to give to us, not to take.

Why are we talking about Jesus? That's a character that come from a holy book. I said us atheists are open minded to the idea of a creator but we reject all religions are being man made up. So who cares what the author of the bible said the character of the bible said?

We don't believe Jesus was the messiah. In fact, neither do Jews and Muslims or Buddhists or Hindu. So stop it or I'm going to start telling you what Mohammad or Joseph Smith said. What Jesus said does not matter unless someone believes in your 1 religion. Do you believe in the Koran? Of course you don't.


Seems without bringing up your fairytale book, you don't have very strong arguments that god exists. Seems you need that fairytale book as proof god exists. So not only are you saying this god visited, you are also saying you yourself are a god in waiting. When you die you will become a god too right? You'll live forever and never be sad, sick, mad, jealous.

So stop it with your holy book. It's silly.