Obama's ideal of racial relations

[jreeves]

Obama has defended his religion and church. He encouraged an open discussion on racial relations, is this what he had in mind?

As noted by Spengler in The Asia Times (3/18/08) Senator Barack Obama’s Reverend and mentor, the bigoted Jeremiah Wright, invoked James Cone, repeatedly, during a now infamous interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News

James Cone, quoted in William R Jones, “Divine Racism: The Unacknowledged Threshold Issue for Black Theology”, in African-American Religious Thought: An Anthology, ed Cornel West and Eddie Glaube, Westminster John Knox Press, 2003, pp. 850, 856.

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

From James Cone’s own, Black Theology and Black Power, 1997, Orbis, p.150:


For white people, God’s reconciliation in Jesus Christ means that God has made black people a beautiful people; and if they are going to be in relationship with God, they must enter by means of their black brothers, who are a manifestation of God’s presence on earth. The assumption that one can know God without knowing blackness is the basic heresy of the white churches. They want God without blackness, Christ without obedience, love without death. What they fail to realize is that in America, God’s revelation on earth has always been black, red, or some other shocking shade, but never white. Whiteness, as revealed in the history of America, is the expression of what is wrong with man. It is a symbol of man’s depravity. God cannot be white even though white churches have portrayed him as white. When we look at what whiteness has done to the minds of men in this country, we can see clearly what the New Testament meant when it spoke of the principalities and powers. To speak of Satan and his powers becomes not just a way of speaking but a fact of reality. When we can see a people who are controlled by an ideology of whiteness, then we know what reconciliation must mean. The coming of Christ means a denial of what we thought we were. It means destroying the white devil in us. Reconciliation to God means that white people are prepared to deny themselves (whiteness), take up the cross (blackness) and follow Christ (black ghetto).

http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/20...’s-church-breaking-the-james-cone-of-silence/

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ohh come now, it just means something different to black people, we can not understand that when he preaches death and destruction he just means it metaphorically. When he calls all white people spawn of Satan, he is just saying that to emphasize a point. He doesn't REALLY mean all whites are evil and must die, that all whites worship Satan, we just do not understand him is all.

By the way, I have this Bridge I can sell ya cheap......

 

[ReillyT]

Ohh come now, it just means something different to black people, we can not understand that when he preaches death and destruction he just means it metaphorically. When he calls all white people spawn of Satan, he is just saying that to emphasize a point. He doesn't REALLY mean all whites are evil and must die, that all whites worship Satan, we just do not understand him is all.

By the way, I have this Bridge I can sell ya cheap......

I wouldn't so much suggest that it means something different to black people. I think it might mean something different to people who understand black liberation ideology today (black or white). I think Wright's words may have conveyed a deeper and more nuanced reading to his parish than we can understand from a few snippets.

I did look at the Hannity interview transcript. The interview itself was pretty pathetic (partially because Wright kept interrupting). However, this is what Wright did say.

WRIGHT: The African-centered point of view does not assume superiority, nor does it assume separatism. It assumes Africans speaking for themselves as subjects in history, not objects in history.

It comes from the principles of Kawaida, the second principle being Kuji Salawi (ph), which is self-determination, us naming ourselves, and not saying we are superior to anybody. We have no hierarchical arrangement.

When you say an African-centered way of thinking, African-centered philosophy, African-centered theology, you're talking about one center. We're talking about something that's different. And different does not mean deficient...

COLMES: Aren't there black churches...

WRIGHT: ... nor does it mean superior or inferior. The whole notion of hierarchal, one's superior, we must be separate because we're better, that has absolutely nothing to do with...

He also says:

WRIGHT: If you're not going to talk about theology in context, if you're not going to talk about liberation theology that came out of the ‘60s, (INAUDIBLE) black liberation theology, that started with Jim Cone in 1968, and the writings of Cone, and the writings of Dwight Hopkins, and the writings of womanist theologians, and Asian theologians, and Hispanic theologians...

HANNITY: Reverend, I've got to get this in.

WRIGHT: Then you can talk about the black value system.

Nothing I read in that "infamous" interview leads me to believe Wright's beliefs can be boiled down to the simple idea: "Hate Whitey"

Of course, another issue is how much one can attribute any of this to Obama, who is his own person, regardless of his connection to Wright.

 

[jreeves]

I wouldn't so much suggest that it means something different to black people. I think it might mean something different to people who understand black liberation ideology today (black or white). I think Wright's words may have conveyed a deeper and more nuanced reading to his parish than we can understand from a few snippets.

I did look at the Hannity interview transcript. The interview itself was pretty pathetic (partially because Wright kept interrupting). However, this is what Wright did say.



He also says:



Nothing I read in that "infamous" interview leads me to believe Wright's beliefs can be boiled down to the simple idea: "Hate Whitey"

Of course, another issue is how much one can attribute any of this to Obama, who is his own person, regardless of his connection to Wright.

The whole chuch is based on theology of black liberation. Which takes it's roots in Black Power and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. which in itself are contradictory. Dr. King denounced the Black Power movement as being divisive and too angry.

 

[ReillyT]

The whole chuch is based on theology of black liberation. Which takes it's roots in Black Power and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. which in itself are contradictory. Dr. King denounced the Black Power movement as being divisive and too angry.

First, the whole question of general ideology is separate from the question of what this parish actually preached (and I don't mean just snippets from 20 years of sermons). One could come up with a general ideological statement to describe Catholicism, but it is actually interpreted and practiced in different ways in the US, Africa, South America, and within each one of these regions (not to mention differences that may exist between churches next door to one another).

Second, if the theology takes its roots from Black Power and Dr. King, in what ways is it influenced by each of these belief systems? How does it combine them? Do different churches focus on different aspects of each belief system?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but it seems silly to discuss this in a vacuum, attributing the worst (or the best) of each system to a single church that we know little about, and making judgements about the attendees of this church based on our assumptions.

 

[jreeves]

First, the whole question of general ideology is separate from the question of what this parish actually preached (and I don't mean just snippets from 20 years of sermons). One could come up with a general ideological statement to describe Catholicism, but it is actually interpreted and practiced in different ways in the US, Africa, South America, and within each one of these regions (not to mention differences that may exist between churches next door to one another).

Second, if the theology takes its roots from Black Power and Dr. King, in what ways is it influenced by each of these belief systems? How does it combine them? Do different churches focus on different aspects of each belief system?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but it seems silly to discuss this in a vacuum, attributing the worst (or the best) of each system to a single church that we know little about, and making judgements about the attendees of this church based on our assumptions.

Ok, first off James Cone has stated that Dr. Wright's church reflected his views of the black liberation theology.
Secondly, I think we can tell from Cone's statements it is more closely alligned with those of black power.
Lastly, couldn't you say the same thing about the KKK, I mean I don't know a ton about their idealogy either, but I know their racist.

 

[ReillyT]

Ok, first off James Cone has stated that Dr. Wright's church reflected his views of the black liberation theology.
Secondly, I think we can tell from Cone's statements it is more closely alligned with those of black power.
Lastly, couldn't you say the same thing about the KKK, I mean I don't know a ton about their idealogy either, but I know their racist.

I don't know much about James Cone, and I wouldn't expect you to either. However, one probably shouldn't distill Cone's beliefs into one quote or one statement. That is a bad approach to understanding anyone.

Here are some quotes from a Bill Moyers interview with Cone about a recent book he wrote on lynchings. They convey a much more nuanced approach to race relations than you have heretofore painted.

BILL MOYERS: So, how does love fit into that? What do you mean when you say God is love?

JAMES CONE: God is that power. That power that enables you to resist. You love that! You love the power that empowers you even in a situation in which you have no political power. The-- you have to love God. Now, what is trouble is loving white people. Now, that's tough. It's not God we having trouble loving. Now, loving white people. Now, that's-- that's difficult. But, King -- you know, King helped us on that. But, that is a-- that is an agonizing response.

BILL MOYERS: Have you forgiven whites for lynching your ancestors?

JAMES CONE: Well, it's not a question of forgiveness except in this sense. You see, when whites ask me about that, then I want to know why they're asking, see. Because I want to first talk about what you going to do in order to make sense out of the world to make me want to do that. See, I don't think my forgiveness of you depends on what you do. But, I am curious why you ask me that.

BILL MOYERS: I ask it because I'm not sure I could give it.

JAMES CONE: That's because, you see, when you have a power and a reality in your experience that transcends both you and me, then it's not just what you can do or what I can do. It is what the power in us can do. That-- you lose that-- you lose the presence of a spirit that is greater than you, that enables you to do the unthinkable because you know you're connected with the scoundrel even though he might have lynched you or lynched your brother. You are gonna fight him about that. But, does not-- he's a bad brother. But, he's still a brother.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11232007/transcript1.html

This is an even better one.

BILL MOYERS: What are we to do about all of these recent events with the nooses? How-- how should we respond?

JAMES CONE: It ought to encourage us to connect. Blacks and whites. It oughta encourage us that-- to remind us we don't have the community that we oughta have. And so, instead of it, you know, separating us from each other, it should bring us together. And generally speaking, there were whites in all of the marches in Jena, at Columbia. There are always whites there. That's hope. That's a sign of hope.

The man has written many books and given many speeches. In order to understand what he believes and espouses, we should start by reading some of these books.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And yet you ADMIT you have read NONE of his books. Have no understanding of his beliefs, no idea what he stands for or means when he calls for the "destruction by any means" of all white people. No understanding of what he means when he states all white people are evil.

Lets try this.... what would you think if a white man made those statements about the black race? Ohh wait, I forgot, he is black so he gets a pass.

 

[ReillyT]

And yet you ADMIT you have read NONE of his books. Have no understanding of his beliefs, no idea what he stands for or means when he calls for the "destruction by any means" of all white people. No understanding of what he means when he states all white people are evil.

Lets try this.... what would you think if a white man made those statements about the black race? Ohh wait, I forgot, he is black so he gets a pass.

I have read none of his books. I am quite sure that you haven't either. I admit that I don't have a full understanding of what Cone believes. I wish you would do the same.

I have at least looked at an interview that he gave last year that gives me greater insight into what he believes. The interview was contextual - not just quotes pulled out of thin air.

Yes, I would view similar statements made by a white person differently. However, even in that case, I would be open to being persuaded from my original interpretations if the context called for it.

 

[jreeves]

I have read none of his books. I am quite sure that you haven't either. I admit that I don't have a full understanding of what Cone believes. I wish you would do the same.

I have at least looked at an interview that he gave last year that gives me greater insight into what he believes. The interview was contextual - not just quotes pulled out of thin air.

Yes, I would view similar statements made by a white person differently. However, even in that case, I would be open to being persuaded from my original interpretations if the context called for it.

Do you know about the Jena fiasco?

Also those statements I posted are out of his book on 'black liberation theology' which led the founding of the black liberation theology. Like I have said Dr. King didn't approve of this hate language.

 

[ReillyT]

Do you know about the Jena fiasco?

Also those statements I posted are out of his book on 'black liberation theology' which led the founding of the black liberation theology. Like I have said Dr. King didn't approve of this hate language.

I do know about Jena.

Those statements are merely individual quotes taken from a lifetime of writing. They do not encompass the man or his beliefs. They merely form one facet of his belief system, which should be taken in context. In order to grasp the context, we should learn and read more from Cone. Here is another quote from Cone, since you seem to like to quote him a great deal.

JAMES CONE: The next step is to connect with people who also have hope: blacks, whites, Hispanic, all different ages, all different kinds of people. You have to connect and be around and organize with people who have hope.

BILL MOYERS: Organize?

JAMES CONE: Yes.

BILL MOYERS: What do you mean organize?

JAMES CONE: You organize to make the world the way it ought to be.

BILL MOYERS: And that--

JAMES CONE: And that is the beloved community. You have to have some witness to that. Even if it's a small witness of just you and me.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11232007/watch2.html

If you don't feel like reading, the interview can be watched at the website.

 

[jreeves]

I do know about Jena.

Those statements are merely individual quotes taken from a lifetime of writing. They do not encompass the man or his beliefs. They merely form one facet of his belief system, which should be taken in context. In order to grasp the context, we should learn and read more from Cone. Here is another quote from Cone, since you seem to like to quote him a great deal.



http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11232007/watch2.html

If you don't feel like reading, the interview can be watched at the website.

And he still called for the destruction of all whites, it doesn't change his comments sorry. That type of hate is exactly what Dr. King spoke against.

 

[jreeves]

And he still called for the destruction of all whites, it doesn't change his comments sorry. That type of hate is exactly what Dr. King spoke against.

You posted his comments about Jena, not me.

 

[ReillyT]

And he still called for the destruction of all whites, it doesn't change his comments sorry. That type of hate is exactly what Dr. King spoke against.

I just gave you an interview where he clearly discusses the need for people of all races to work together to build a better society. He notes that even the person lynching him is his brother. If you refuse to see context, then I can't help you.

 

[ReillyT]

You posted his comments about Jena, not me.

You are responding to your own comment. What are you talking about? His comments about Jena are good in that they acknowledge the hope of people of different races acting together against racism.

 

[jreeves]

You are responding to your own comment. What are you talking about? His comments about Jena are good in that they acknowledge the hope of people of different races acting together against racism.

Can you explain exactly what happened in Jena?

 

[jreeves]

I just gave you an interview where he clearly discusses the need for people of all races to work together to build a better society. He notes that even the person lynching him is his brother. If you refuse to see context, then I can't help you.

Well show me the context in which he called for the destruction of all white people. Is there any such context that would make that acceptable?

 

[ReillyT]

Well show me the context in which he called for the destruction of all white people. Is there any such context that would make that acceptable?

I did find this quote on Wikipedia, but I am not sure if it is the quote you are referring to.

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community ... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hal_Cone#cite_note-Newsobs-7

However, in the preamble to presenting this quote, Wikipedia also says...

An online columnist, writing under the pseudonym Spengler, attacked Cone's theology as "ethnocentric heresy" on Mar. 18, 2008,[10] presenting the following putative quotation, which is only partially verifiable from Cone's own writings,[11] but which has subsequently been widely circulated on the internet

That is more than just context. That is an unreliable source.

 

[jillian]

Don't all religious people (three major religions, that is) believe that G-d smites their oppressors and enemies?

I mean, he makes your favorite football team win and gets your favorite artists the Grammy, right?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Don't all religious people (three major religions, that is) believe that G-d smites their oppressors and enemies?

I mean, he makes your favorite football team win and gets your favorite artists the Grammy, right?

No.