Zone1 If Jesus Was A Jew

[rosends]

Feel free to address all of the points then. It shouldn't be hard if they are in there as you say. But they aren't.

They are all addressed in the web pages I linked to. Are you afraid to read?

 

[ding]

They are all addressed in the web pages I linked to. Are you afraid to read?

You will have to show me. It's not there.

 

[rosends]

You will have to show me. It's not there.

so you don't read. Got it. The website (in 3 separate pages) goes through the textual and historical facts and debunks the claim of "Jesus" (who is never mentioned at all, let alone described). All you have to do is read.

 

[ding]

so you don't read. Got it. The website (in 3 separate pages) goes through the textual and historical facts and debunks the claim of "Jesus" (who is never mentioned at all, let alone described). All you have to do is read.

It's not in there. Show me. Quote it. Make sure to cover each point.

 

[rosends]

It's not in there. Show me. Quote it. Make sure to cover each point.

It's not in there? Can you really not read?

Jesus In The Talmud

Jesus in the Talmud.

www.angelfire.com

 

[ding]

It's not in there? Can you really not read?

Jesus In The Talmud

Jesus in the Talmud.

www.angelfire.com

I got that. What I didn't get was the other stuff. You know the corroborating evidence that says Jesus did exist. Which corroborates the case for Jesus being mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud.

 

[rosends]

I got that. What I didn't get was the other stuff. You know the corroborating evidence that says Jesus did exist. Which corroborates the case for Jesus being mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud.

I don't care about whether he existed at all. Not everyone who existed is in the Talmud. Jesus might have existed. Don't know don't care. He just isn't in the talmud.

 

[ding]

I don't care about whether he existed at all. Not everyone who existed is in the Talmud. Jesus might have existed. Don't know don't care. He just isn't in the talmud.

Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AsherN]

Genesis Chapter 3 - Adam and Eve were ousted from the Garden of Eden after disobeying God by eating the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Does Judaism teach that because of this, mankind needed God's redemption?

That is viewed as a test. it is debatable if Adam and Eve passed or failed. Generally, passed. As they asserted free will.

 

[Meriweather]

That is viewed as a test. it is debatable if Adam and Eve passed or failed. Generally, passed. As they asserted free will.

An interesting concept...if I am understanding you correctly and I'm not sure I am. Are you saying being disobedient to God was passing the test, because disobedience to God is regarded as a positive sign of free will? Is Cain killing Abel also seen as a positive act of free will? (You can see why I may not be understanding this correctly because if Cain killing his brother is seen as a positive act of free will, why are those who murder punished? Isn't it in the Book of Deuteronomy that one who murders another must die?)

 

[AsherN]

An interesting concept...if I am understanding you correctly and I'm not sure I am. Are you saying being disobedient to God was passing the test, because disobedience to God is regarded as a positive sign of free will? Is Cain killing Abel also seen as a positive act of free will? (You can see why I may not be understanding this correctly because if Cain killing his brother is seen as a positive act of free will, why are those who murder punished? Isn't it in the Book of Deuteronomy that one who murders another must die?)

Not all acts are test, especially tests from G-d. Telling Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge is the first test of free will. And we passed. We are meant to have free will. Yes, Cain exercised free will. Not all acts are positive.

 

[Meriweather]

Not all acts are test, especially tests from G-d. Telling Adam & Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge is the first test of free will. And we passed. We are meant to have free will. Yes, Cain exercised free will. Not all acts are positive.

Are you saying that if Adam and Eve chose not to eat from the tree of knowledge, that choice not to eat was not an act of free will, but one of coercion or forced prevention? God would have said, "Sorry Adam and Eve. Since you chose to obey, you failed the free-will test. Free will means you must choose disobedience. Otherwise you remain a slave."

This is confusing.

 

[zaangalewa]

An interesting concept...if I am understanding you correctly and I'm not sure I am. Are you saying being disobedient to God was passing the test, because disobedience to God is regarded as a positive sign of free will? Is Cain killing Abel also seen as a positive act of free will? (You can see why I may not be understanding this correctly because if Cain killing his brother is seen as a positive act of free will, why are those who murder punished? Isn't it in the Book of Deuteronomy that one who murders another must die?)

Your problem now: God forbade Cain to be punished. That is why he received the mark of Cain. And somehow we are all - all human beings - also the children of Cain.

 

[zaangalewa]

Are you saying that if Adam and Eve chose not to eat from the tree of knowledge, that choice not to eat was not an act of free will, but one of coercion or forced prevention? God would have said, "Sorry Adam and Eve. Since you chose to obey, you failed the free-will test. Free will means you must choose disobedience. Otherwise you remain a slave."

This is confusing.

And much more confusing: Perhaps Eve did not know at all that it was forbidden to do so. She did not exist when g'd said so to Adam. So what if this message was only made for the Y-chromosome?

 

[AsherN]

Are you saying that if Adam and Eve chose not to eat from the tree of knowledge, that choice not to eat was not an act of free will, but one of coercion or forced prevention? God would have said, "Sorry Adam and Eve. Since you chose to obey, you failed the free-will test. Free will means you must choose disobedience. Otherwise you remain a slave."

This is confusing.

Somewhat. You do understand that Adam and Eve are metaphors for mankind, right? And not actual people. That mankind chose to exercise free will by understanding good and evil.

 

[Meriweather]

Somewhat. You do understand that Adam and Eve are metaphors for mankind, right? And not actual people. That mankind chose to exercise free will by understanding good and evil.

I picture 'Adam' as being the first tribe of people, and 'Eve' representative of women's role and influence in this tribe. I also picture the Guiding Question hanging over all of mankind, every generation, as being: Do you want the knowledge...the experience...of both Good and Evil. To me it seems all of us choose to have knowledge of both.

Where we may disagree, is that knowledge of evil does not necessitate creating/doing evil individually. There is enough evil in the world to become aware of that we don't need to be our own manufacturers of evil. My belief in God is that out of evil, He brings good, and that is the lesson for mankind. Can we bring good out of evil.

 

[AsherN]

I picture 'Adam' as being the first tribe of people, and 'Eve' representative of women's role and influence in this tribe. I also picture the Guiding Question hanging over all of mankind, every generation, as being: Do you want the knowledge...the experience...of both Good and Evil. To me it seems all of us choose to have knowledge of both.

Where we may disagree, is that knowledge of evil does not necessitate creating/doing evil individually. There is enough evil in the world to become aware of that we don't need to be our own manufacturers of evil. My belief in God is that out of evil, He brings good, and that is the lesson for mankind. Can we bring good out of evil.

It's not just knowledge of it. It is part of us. we all have a Yetzer haRa and a Yetzer HaTov. A bad and good inclination. Left alone, the Yetzer HaRa is dominant, but Torah is what helps keep it in check.

 

[hobelim]

I did not write Romans, that passage begins by saying what is not a Jew, then what is. It is telling us that "Jew" has dual meaning as did many thing discussed by Jesus (like blindness, deafness etc). The term "Jew" as used in scripture in the NT is being defined by this passage.

You said a "real Jew" is one called by God. Thats the problem. The entire Jewish nation has been called by God. Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and to them alone. He didn't say he was sent to real Jews. All Jews are real Jews, even if Jesus saw some as lost sheep.

I am a Jew according to Romans.

Thats impossible. You have been misled. You are not a Jew even if there is duel meaning. Do you worship Jesus as if he was God? If you do you are just an idolator. A seriously confused pagan.

If you were Jewish, whether actually or in your imagination, spiritually, you would rather die a horrible death than worship a human being or even pretend to believe that God became a man.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

You said a "real Jew" is one called by God. Thats the problem. The entire Jewish nation has been called by God. Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and to them alone. He didn't say he was sent to real Jews. All Jews are real Jews, even if Jesus saw some as lost sheep.

That's not the case. Romans says a person who is physically "outwardly" (descended from the tribe of Judah) is not a Jew - read it. The physical nation of "Judah" was called upon to perform a service but they refused and so were eventually physically overrun by physical enemies as you well know.

Thats impossible. You have been misled. You are not a Jew even if there is duel meaning. Do you worship Jesus as if he was God? If you do you are just an idolator. A seriously confused pagan.

Read, this is telling what a Jew really is, it is revealed knowledge that cannot be discerned but has to be revealed to us, our earthly selves cannot discern spiritual truth:

No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

Read now Rev 3:9

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

You speak of "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" and then seem to imply that physical Jews alone are being called by God. But read, this is what "lost Sheep of the house of Israel" means

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Why would Jesus grant her (a woman who was not a Jew) request if she was not of the physical house of Israel? The only sensible interpretation is that "house of Israel" does not mean physical Israelite and that passage is revealing that to the reader.

If you were Jewish, whether actually or in your imagination, spiritually, you would rather die a horrible death than worship a human being or even pretend to believe that God became a man.

Terms like "Jew" and "Israel" and "Israelite" have both a spiritual meaning and a physical meaning, Jesus revealed this to us in many different NT scriptures.

Why would Acts ultimately show that circumcision is not required to follow Christ? why would that even come up if Jesus was only sent to the physical Israelites?

 

[Captain Caveman]

Then why aren't Christians Jewish? I don't get it.

Would he be circumcised