Zone1 If Jesus Was A Jew

[Sherlock Holmes]

the funniest part of all this is the use of the word "Jew" (Ἰουδαῖός) in relatively early Christian texts when that wasn't a word that Jews would have used to identify themselves until very late in the textual game, so none of the biblical prophecies would have mentioned "Jews".

250 BC is not what I'd call "very late" in Christian literature.

 

[rosends]

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250 BC is not what I'd call "very late" in Christian literature.

you were quoting Romans. I said "relatively early Christian texts". Jews didn't have it appear textually until rather late in the biblical chronology.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

you were quoting Romans. I said "relatively early Christian texts". Jews didn't have it appear textually until rather late in the biblical chronology.

When was "rather late"?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

This is the oldest known use of Ioudaios - 250 BC

 

[hobelim]

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This is the oldest known use of Ioudaios - 250 BC

250 BCE is rather late in Biblical chronology.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

250 BCE is rather late in Biblical chronology.

Right but not in Christian literature. The term was in use it seems some 250 years before Jesus was born so how can it be claimed that Jews would not have used the word to refer to Jews when penning the Gospels and Epistles?

 

[rosends]

Right but not in Christian literature. The term was in use it seems some 250 years before Jesus was born so how can it be claimed that Jews would not have used the word to refer to Jews when penning the Gospels and Epistles?

Jews would have in 250bce, but they would have meant something else by it and that is really late in the events of the Jewish bible.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

the funniest part of all this is the use of the word "Jew" (Ἰουδαῖός) in relatively early Christian texts when that wasn't a word that Jews would have used to identify themselves until very late in the textual game, so none of the biblical prophecies would have mentioned "Jews".

Please explain what you mean, on what basis can you declare "that wasn't a word that Jews would have used to identify themselves until very late in the textual game" when it was used 250 years before Jesus?

 

[rosends]

When was "rather late"?

do you know the chronology of the Jewish biblical texts?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Jews would have in 250bce, but they would have meant something else by it and that is really late in the events of the Jewish bible.

So what? how do you know what was "meant" by the term at the time we see it in Romans for example? Jews used Greek, they wrote in Greek, they translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek in and the Septuagint contains Ioudaios

 

[rosends]

Please explain what you mean, on what basis can you declare "that wasn't a word that Jews would have used to identify themselves until very late in the textual game" when it was used 250 years before Jesus?

look in the texts and see what words were used. Find out when the texts date from. Learn the history of the time.

 

[rosends]

So what? how do you know what was "meant" by the term at the time we see it in Romans for example?

I'm assuming that the translators who took it to mean "Jews" in English would know what they meant. I know what biblical accounts mean because I can read the Hebrew.

 

[hobelim]

The term was in use it seems some 250 years before Jesus was born so how can it be claimed that Jews would not have used the word to refer to Jews when penning the Gospels and Epistles?

How can it be? You quoted a Greek word used by Greeks. And the gospels were written in Greek.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm assuming that the translators who took it to mean "Jews" in English would know what they meant. I know what biblical accounts mean because I can read the Hebrew.

So could the translators who created the Septuagint but unlike you, they were fluent in Greek too.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

How can it be? You quoted a Greek word used by Greeks. And the gospels were written in Greek.

Jews sometimes wrote in Greek, the translators of the Septuagint did and so did Josephus the Jewish historian. The Gospels pertain to Greek speaking Jews.

 

[rosends]

So could the translators who created the Septuagint but unlike you, they were fluent in Greek too.

Yes, and they were Christians (the actual Septuagint translated by Jews was only the first 5 books, none of which use the word.) And the problem I pointed out was in the translation from Greek to English. Do you think that the translation you quoted was unclear?

 

[hobelim]

Jews sometimes wrote in Greek, the translators of the Septuagint did and so did Josephus the Jewish historian.

So what. Jesus spoke Aramaic and understood Hebrew. Whats your point?
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The Gospels pertain to Greek speaking Jews.

The gospels pertain to anyone who can read.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yes, and they were Christians (the actual Septuagint translated by Jews was only the first 5 books, none of which use the word.)

The translators of the Septuagint where Christians? where is this coming from??

And the problem I pointed out was in the translation from Greek to English. Do you think that the translation you quoted was unclear?

The text is defining what a "Jew" is, the revelatory text itself is defining "Jew" for the reader.

The text also sheds light on what Jew means here:

...neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh...

It is referring to those people, those for whom circumcision is a sign, no other groups practiced circumcision.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

So what. Jesus spoke Aramaic and understood Hebrew. Whats your point?

My point is I do not see the relevance of what rosends says in this reply to me.

The gospels pertain to anyone who can read.

You're jumping in late, go and read my first post and rosends reply to it.

 

[rosends]

The translators of the Septuagint where Christians? where is this coming from??

Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums-Corrupted Jewish Bible or Corrupted Chrstian Greek Text?

Searchingjew, let's be honest. You didn't read that from Emmanuel Tov: Because he never said it. He never wrote it. You read and pasted that quote tha

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The text is defining what a "Jew" is, the revelatory text itself is defining "Jew" for the reader.

So it is defining a word the. Deciding that earlier people who never used the word meant it differently. Got it.

The text also sheds light on what Jew means here:



It is referring to those people, those for whom circumcision is a sign, no other groups practiced circumcision.

No other group? Many would disagree.