Not Afraid.....Yet?

[sagegirl]

I was watching the news shortly after the first London bomb attacks and saw a report on a web site that had as its premise, I am not afraid.
The site was experiencing alot of responses from people sending in pictures of themselves stating, "I'm not afraid" or basically that message.
I guess the intent was to say to the terrorists that their tactics would not work and that we would carry on and live our lives as if everything was OK.
I was surprised that the response to the first bombings was generally an attitude that first of all it was considered inevitable and secondly that it must not interfere with daily living....carry on so to speak.
I dont think this attitude is quite as stoical now after the second bombing.
I heard Londoners were riding to work on bicycles and were expressing fear.
Some observations:
First: I think fear is a natural and healthy response to a threat. It heightens our awareness and perhaps leads us to pursue relief.
Second: It seems that the powers that be would prefer that we not be afraid. The media (and the I am not afraid, website) encourage us to carry on as normal ??? to travel, get out and participate in events which they tell us are being monitored carefully for security issues, etc. The media spills praise out for the individuals that defy the threat and get out in the thick of it claiming NO FEAR. It is important to maintain the status quo no matter what.
Third: My hope is that we will finally come to realize that we really can do something to change this scenario. Our government and its leaders have created an atmosphere that terrorists feel the only method of getting through to us is by the acts of terrorist bombing and other disruptions to our
carefree and oblivious routines. They will not stop and we cannot stop them
unless we open a dialog that is beneficial for both sides. The time will come.
How much longer we tolerate leaders who fail to really address these issues is up to us. We can be told that homeland security measures are working and that we should go on about our lives, but we are smart enough to know that it can and probably will happen again here, another terrorist attack, be it biological, or a bomb blast, and just the constant knowledge that the threat is ever present. Living our lives in FEAR. I think the best way to end this terrorism is to get to know the "enemy". The more we communicate with them and get to understand them the better chance we have of living in a world where we can all tolerate our differences and have some forum to express our grievances. What we have now isnt working....it is definitely time for change.

 

[Gabriella84]

Some decent points there. The U.S. government has been attempting to scare us since Sept. 11. They want us to live in fear of reprisal, since it allows them to waste money on expensive weaponry and gives them the opportunity to send unlimited numbers of soldiers to their deaths.

 

[William Joyce]

I think the best way to end this terrorism is to get to know the "enemy". The more we communicate with them and get to understand them the better chance we have of living in a world where we can all tolerate our differences and have some forum to express our grievances. What we have now isnt working....it is definitely time for change.

I was with you until this point, and I am somewhat sympathetic to even this, but from a pretty hardcore consersative perspective. I am NOT interested in holding hands with Muslim radicals and "getting to know" them. And anyone who reads my posts knows I have NO interest in "tolerating differences." I say bullshit to that.

But!

I am interested in more public discussion of what MOTIVATES them, which is U.S. support of Israel. Osama bin Laden said that was a main reason for 9/11, but we don't ever even TALK about this because it's taboo. I think that is wrong. Our country's interests should come first, and if the neocon Jews want Israel's to come first, we'll just have to ignore them.

 

[sagegirl]

I was with you until this point, and I am somewhat sympathetic to even this, but from a pretty hardcore consersative perspective. I am NOT interested in holding hands with Muslim radicals and "getting to know" them. And anyone who reads my posts knows I have NO interest in "tolerating differences." I say bullshit to that.

But!

I am interested in more public discussion of what MOTIVATES them, which is U.S. support of Israel. Osama bin Laden said that was a main reason for 9/11, but we don't ever even TALK about this because it's taboo. I think that is wrong. Our country's interests should come first, and if the neocon Jews want Israel's to come first, we'll just have to ignore them.

I do agree with your point....lets find out what motivates them....that is why I say get to know them, and let them get to know us. They are udoubtedly being fed as much bs as we are and coming to insane conclusions like us. We are suppose to believe that they hate us because we love freedom (according to gwb) and we hate them because they hate us. We are dying on both sides of this and other issues. Lets get the public discussion started and come up with some alternatives to todays oxymoronic "conventional wisdom".

 

[Said1]

But!

I am interested in more public discussion of what MOTIVATES them, which is U.S. support of Israel. Osama bin Laden said that was a main reason for 9/11, but we don't ever even TALK about this because it's taboo. I think that is wrong. Our country's interests should come first, and if the neocon Jews want Israel's to come first, we'll just have to ignore them.

At this point, I think it goes beyond that. Persoanlly, I think they want the permenant removal of everything remotely resembling anything non-muslim from their countries, including their own leaders.

 

[Said1]

I do agree with your point....lets find out what motivates them....that is why I say get to know them, and let them get to know us. They are udoubtedly being fed as much bs as we are and coming to insane conclusions like us. We are suppose to believe that they hate us because we love freedom (according to gwb) and we hate them because they hate us. We are dying on both sides of this and other issues. Lets get the public discussion started and come up with some alternatives to todays oxymoronic "conventional wisdom".

BS conclusions, for example?

 

[archangel]

I do agree with your point....lets find out what motivates them....that is why I say get to know them, and let them get to know us. They are udoubtedly being fed as much bs as we are and coming to insane conclusions like us. We are suppose to believe that they hate us because we love freedom (according to gwb) and we hate them because they hate us. We are dying on both sides of this and other issues. Lets get the public discussion started and come up with some alternatives to todays oxymoronic "conventional wisdom".

Here we go again....get out the tie dyed t-shirts...throw flowers and sing cumbya' whilst the radicals nuke and behead us! :firing:

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

I am interested in more public discussion of what MOTIVATES them, which is U.S. support of Israel. Osama bin Laden said that was a main reason for 9/11, but we don't ever even TALK about this because it's taboo. I think that is wrong. Our country's interests should come first, and if the neocon Jews want Israel's to come first, we'll just have to ignore them.

That might make the US safer for a while, in the same way the US was safe in WWII... right up until December 7, 1941. Ignore the terrorists, give them time to setup infrastructure in muslim countries, let them develop nuclear and biological weapons, then let's see your reaction when those same terrorists you ignored in 2005 come to you in 2010 and say "everyone convert to islam now or we nuke you". You will find yourself fighting the exact same war you could have fought now except they will have nukes, you won't have any help from the former Israel (long since annihilated), and you'll have new fundamentalist governments in Iraq, Egypt, Turkey, Afghanistan, India, and Pakistan who will be supplying terrorists with everything they need.

You ask what motivates them? Listen to them, they tell you every day. Their only attempt to hide their message is by using your anti-semitism to trick you into thinking their goals have something to do with Israel and even at this, they don't try very hard. Listen to their messages and see if you can find any hint, even a tiny hint that they will stop once they have destroyed Israel. They are telling you every day what their eventual goal is: the destruction, through conversion or death, of every non-islamic person everywhere on earth (yes, including the US). I suspect you know this but you think that by isolating the US from the rest of the world, you can better protect yourself. In fact, all you do is let them fight their war against you on their terms. The war will be fought to its conclusion eventually. Do you want to do it when you are ready, or when they are ready?

 

[Abbey Normal]

A sample post from an Muslim message board:

"The Americans are kuffar. They will not negotiate with you; they are liars.

If you think they will retaliate, you are living in a fantasy world.

You can either fight now or later. But you will have to fight.

The only way the Americans will leave is if the entire region, all the Middle East is fighting them, and no other way.

It would behoove everybody to join in, Iran included, now."

 

[-Cp]

A sample post from an Muslim message board:

"The Americans are kuffar. They will not negotiate with you; they are liars.

If you think they will retaliate, you are living in a fantasy world.

You can either fight now or later. But you will have to fight.

The only way the Americans will leave is if the entire region, all the Middle East is fighting them, and no other way.

It would behoove everybody to join in, Iran included, now."

 

[sagegirl]

BS conclusions, for example?

Well I think the idea that the terrorists wont stop until every non muslim....non islamic is dead and gone is bs, I think that the idea that they hate us, especially because we "love" freedom is bs, I think that very premise that we entered Iraq to get wmd and free the Iraqis from a demonic dictator is bs, (think Downing Street Memo and the pre-war hype. What bs they (the terrorists and other islams)are fed is surely reflected in their actions, and some of it is based on what they see and experience and the rest on a fundamentalist religion that does not serve them well (as well as the fundamentalists in the US resort to similar tactics ....like bombers of womens health care facilities) .
I dont see how an open and intelligent dialog between the many sides involved could do any more harm than the present state of affairs, we can only hope to expose the liars and the cause for their motivation on all sides.

 

[sagegirl]

Here we go again....get out the tie dyed t-shirts...throw flowers and sing cumbya' whilst the radicals nuke and behead us! :firing:

So you have been successfully brainwashed to discredit the messenger when you dont like the message. All you have to offer are insults because the truth of the matter is that you do not want to hear or see the reality of the situation we are in. You are afraid.....the terrorists have won in your case, and you have no workable solution and no way to come up with new ideas. I am sorry for you, your leaders have not served you well and you have succumbed to their rhetoric.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Well I think the idea that the terrorists wont stop until every non muslim....non islamic is dead and gone is bs, I think that the idea that they hate us, especially because we "love" freedom is bs, I think that very premise that we entered Iraq to get wmd and free the Iraqis from a demonic dictator is bs, (think Downing Street Memo and the pre-war hype. What bs they (the terrorists and other islams)are fed is surely reflected in their actions, and some of it is based on what they see and experience and the rest on a fundamentalist religion that does not serve them well (as well as the fundamentalists in the US resort to similar tactics ....like bombers of womens health care facilities) .
I dont see how an open and intelligent dialog between the many sides involved could do any more harm than the present state of affairs, we can only hope to expose the liars and the cause for their motivation on all sides.

They'll stop when they realize the rest of the world is united against their efforts to take it over with islam, so really, you and your ilk are the main problem. If all nations were willing to call a spade a spade, they would be discouraged enough to stop. The succor they find from western libs like you sustains them. Congratulations, traitor.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Our government and its leaders have created an atmosphere that terrorists feel the only method of getting through to us is by the acts of terrorist bombing and other disruptions to our
carefree and oblivious routines.

they are wrong in this assumption. Our actions in no way justify their terrorist acts.

They will not stop and we cannot stop them
unless we open a dialog that is beneficial for both sides.

we can stop them without excessive dialog.

I think the best way to end this terrorism is to get to know the "enemy". The more we communicate with them and get to understand them the better chance we have of living in a world where we can all tolerate our differences and have some forum to express our grievances. What we have now isnt working....it is definitely time for change.

What you fail to understand is the Islam does not tolerate differences. Non muslims are to either accept subjugation to islam or be killed. For someone who claims to value understanding, you're pretty ignorant.

 

[manu1959]

a group hug and 360 degree feedback session will not fix this

 

[sagegirl]

they are wrong in this assumption. Our actions in no way justify their terrorist acts.

we can stop them without excessive dialog.


What you fail to understand is the Islam does not tolerate differences. Non muslims are to either accept subjugation to islam or be killed. For someone who claims to value understanding, you're pretty ignorant.

First of all, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, our actions in no way justify their terrorist acts.....but they do feel the need and the justification whether valid or not to retaliate.
My point here is that we are not gaining ground, the threat of terrorism is still with us , greater than ever really and is showing its ugly disruption all over. It is still fairly new to us and we are trying to balance our free society with the increasing need for security. The process of protecting ourselves from the potential acts of terrorism is a slippery slope. The more measures we need to take to keep us "safe" detract from the freedoms that we have enjoyed. Thusly the terrorists are winning.....we are and should be afraid, and we need to protect ourselves. My thoughts are that we need a new paradigm, a new way of thinking, a new approach, an open dialog whatever it takes to improve the situation. We cannot kill down to the last terrorist, so lets get real.
I dont think we can claim any highground on morality or sensibility, we say we are a tolerant society, and that seems to be part of our problem,... that we have the power and might to spread our IDEALS of freedom, democracy, tolerance, but we havent done a real good job at it here at home. Some of those who carry on about freedom seem to be more interested in controlling and having their way instead of tolerating other opinions, for instance, censorship, legalization of drugs, the right to die, the list goes on, and on , and on. I dont know alot about islam, but I do tend to believe that they too have a society that is intolerant. So we do have that in common, at least. The problem of course is much greater than freedom and intolerance, it has to do with the impression of exploitation, imperialism, and insensitivity on our side and a fundmentalist, jihadist, stubborness on their side. The middle east is going to have to enter into the modern world, the process for them is going to be very difficult, they are a long way back in time. If we expect to have a future together we need to help them adjust to new ideas and this new age. We hold the upper hand here, lets set a good example and show them the benefits of cooperation. We can and should be doing better, until we do, we will live with fear and the threat of terrorism.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

First of all, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, our actions in no way justify their terrorist acts.....but they do feel the need and the justification whether valid or not to retaliate.
My point here is that we are not gaining ground, the threat of terrorism is still with us , greater than ever really and is showing its ugly disruption all over. It is still fairly new to us and we are trying to balance our free society with the increasing need for security. The process of protecting ourselves from the potential acts of terrorism is a slippery slope. The more measures we need to take to keep us "safe" detract from the freedoms that we have enjoyed. Thusly the terrorists are winning.....we are and should be afraid, and we need to protect ourselves. My thoughts are that we need a new paradigm, a new way of thinking, a new approach, an open dialog whatever it takes to improve the situation. We cannot kill down to the last terrorist, so lets get real.
I dont think we can claim any highground on morality or sensibility, we say we are a tolerant society, and that seems to be part of our problem,... that we have the power and might to spread our IDEALS of freedom, democracy, tolerance, but we havent done a real good job at it here at home. Some of those who carry on about freedom seem to be more interested in controlling and having their way instead of tolerating other opinions, for instance, censorship, legalization of drugs, the right to die, the list goes on, and on , and on. I dont know alot about islam, but I do tend to believe that they too have a society that is intolerant. So we do have that in common, at least. The problem of course is much greater than freedom and intolerance, it has to do with the impression of exploitation, imperialism, and insensitivity on our side and a fundmentalist, jihadist, stubborness on their side. The middle east is going to have to enter into the modern world, the process for them is going to be very difficult, they are a long way back in time. If we expect to have a future together we need to help them adjust to new ideas and this new age. We hold the upper hand here, lets set a good example and show them the benefits of cooperation. We can and should be doing better, until we do, we will live with fear and the threat of terrorism.

The fact that you think our society is currently as intolerant as a muslim theocracy shows how completely out of touch you are, despite your well heeled, and politically correct rhetoric. You invalidate yourself with this stupidity.

How should we do better? Any concrete suggestions?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Sage girl, you mention censorship in your list of "other opinions", along with the right to die. Are you PRO censorship?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

First of all, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, our actions in no way justify their terrorist acts.....but they do feel the need and the justification whether valid or not to retaliate.

So the modern world should just tolerate murderous insanity based on nothing?

 

[sagegirl]

The fact that you think our society is currently as intolerant as a muslim theocracy shows how completely out of touch you are, despite your well heeled, and politically correct rhetoric. You invalidate yourself with this stupidity.

How should we do better? Any concrete suggestions?

We can do better.....both as a nation and as individuals.
Suggestions....I wont even try....I just know that what we are doing now is not serving us well. It is a basic understanding to know and respect your "enemy" and what follows in kind of an abstract way is that "ZEN" thing that once you know and respect your enemy, it will no longer exist. Thats way out there I know but it also has some validity. We have to do something positive to get ourselves moving in the right direction.
We cant just pack up and get out of Iraq, but I do believe that we need to establish a realistic plan to pull out. There will continue to be internal problems but if we offer them real benefits for their participation in the world economy (oil profits for one thing) and promise them the right to their own
sovereignty, maybe we can make this situation better.
On a personal level, I think that this war and our military presence in the middle east has alot to do with greed and the desire to have control of the oil and the pipelines throughout the region. It all comes down to money and power and greed. Our government and our leaders are self serving in this and I think it is time to take back our power (away from the lobbyists, the media, and corperate america). We are too comfortable and lazy, and guilty of indifference to alot of whats going on....we are too busy just making a living at least alot of us, and just consider the number of people eligible to vote who dont.