New and Improved Abortion Poll

[manifold]

Mani, I'd still like you to explain how a biological function can be moral or immoral if you can manage to do it without being an ass or making invalid analogies.

And leaving religion out of the equation.

I don't see the relevance. Explain to me how a surgical procedure is a biological function.

 

[Shattered]

Because it's convoluted gobbledygook and not worth the time and breath it would take to play with it.

In other words, ya got nothin, toots. Just admit it.

 

[ABikerSailor]

So we each define our own morality?

What a load of crap.

Actually......we DO Always Babbling......

It's reflected in the way that you think. People are basically programmed to seek out those that are the most like them, so it stands to reason that your morals are going to be defined by you (by the people you hang out with as well as learn from), and if you decide to join their group, then you end up letting the group define your own morality.

No wonder you're such a narrow minded *****.

 

[LOki]

It's killing people, but it's not necessarily murdrer; it's not necessarily immoral.

 

[cjcord]

I don't see the relevance. Explain to me how a surgical procedure is a biological function.

THANK you!

 

[Ravi]

I don't see the relevance. Explain to me how a surgical procedure is a biological function.

The surgical procedure is just a tool. I'm talking about the decision to give birth or not give birth.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The surgical procedure is just a tool. I'm talking about the decision to give birth or not give birth.

You mean the decision to end a life or allow it. Some biological function indeed.

 

[cjcord]

I'm beginning to think that if MEN were the one's doing the birthing, this discussion would be very different indeed....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I'm beginning to think that if MEN were the one's doing the birthing, this discussion would be very different indeed....

Wrong again. But do pretend otherwise. Personal discomfort is NOT a valid reason to kill someone. Interruption of ones plans is NOT a reason to kill some one. Selfishness is not a reason to kill someone.

Shall I go on?

 

[cjcord]

carrying a child to term knowing it will die with it's first breath IS a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy.

Being raped IS a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy.

Delivering at the expense of the mother's life IS a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy..

shall I go on?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

carrying a child to term knowing it will die with it's first breath IS a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy.

Being raped IS a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy.

Delivering at the expense of the mother's life IS a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy..

shall I go on?

The only valid one is the life of the mother.

 

[cjcord]

in your opinion. I assure you others might disagree.

But, I feel satisfied that you have admitted that there is at least one valid reason for abortion. Which sort of makes your arguments to the contrary sort of moot, no?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

in your opinion. I assure you others might disagree.

But, I feel satisfied that you have admitted that there is at least one valid reason for abortion. Which sort of makes your arguments to the contrary sort of moot, no?

No it does not. Murder is the taking of life without justification. On demand abortion is murder.

 

[cjcord]

Now now, you never stated you were speaking of what you call "on demand" abortion. Abortion is abortion. What choices people make after that have nothing to do with the actual discussion.

If abortion in any form is murder, as you have so eloquently phrased it, then we should allow women to die just to carry a child to term. Personally, I feel sentencing a woman to death is more murderous that removing the grouping of unformed cells that is taking her life.

Again, like cancer. If you don;t consider this murder, you cannot consider any of it murder.

Just to clarify, I will again state that my personal belief is that late term abortions are "immoral". But early terminations are no different from any other medical procedure. It is not murder if what you are terminating is not, by definition, a person. yet.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Now now, you never stated you were speaking of what you call "on demand" abortion. Abortion is abortion. What choices people make after that have nothing to do with the actual discussion.

If abortion in any form is murder, as you have so eloquently phrased it, then we should allow women to die just to carry a child to term. Personally, I feel sentencing a woman to death is more murderous that removing the grouping of unformed cells that is taking her life.

Again, like cancer. If you don;t consider this murder, you cannot consider any of it murder.

Just to clarify, I will again state that my personal belief is that late term abortions are "immoral". But early terminations are no different from any other medical procedure. It is not murder if what you are terminating is not, by definition, a person. yet.

I suggest you pull your head out of your ass and read all I have written. Further your claim that abortion is just a procedure and we can not allow one but not another is moronic in the extreme.

Again let me repeat. MURDER is the unjustified taking of life. saving a mother's life is not unjustified. All other abortions are unjustified taking of life.

 

[cjcord]

Oh, right. So...we change laws to say "Abortion is not ok, except for XYZ reason."

And that is NOT moronic? Either it is, or it isn't. Again, it is a personal choice. Thank you for proving my points.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Oh, right. So...we change laws to say "Abortion is not ok, except for XYZ reason."

And that is NOT moronic? Either it is, or it isn't. Again, it is a personal choice. Thank you for proving my points.

Ohh I see, using your logic since a police officer can fire his weapon and kill a person legally under certain circumstances it would be moronic to not allow anyone with a weapon to kill anyone for any reason, since after all it is just a process.

This the best you have?

 

[cjcord]

Sigh. You are again ignoring things.

the discussion is whether or not abortion is murder.

Do you mean murder as a noun or a verb?

–noun
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.

–verb (used with object)
4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.

Now to even begin discussing this, you must first determine what makes a human being.

human being
–noun
1. any individual of the genus Homo, esp. a member of the species Homo sapiens.
2. a person, esp. as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species:

Ok, an individual. Which is:

Biology.
a. a single organism capable of independent existence.
b. a member of a compound organism or colony.

Is a 3 week old fetus capable of independant existence? Most would say no. In fact:

When does the fetus become a viable baby?
While the birth of a baby more than 12 weeks early poses many dilemmas, the threshold of viability has certainly been pushed back by the advent of respiratory support. Recent North American guidelines have suggested that survival occurs at 22 weeks.

So if the fetus is not capable of survival, it is not an individual. if it is not an individual, it is not yet a human being by definition. If it is not a human being, it cannot be murdered.


Any argument to the contrary gets into a philosophical debate. Ala- it is a person when it has a soul. When does it have a soul? Many religions claim this to be at different times. Which is correct? And should religious beliefs take precedence in a legislative decision? That's a totally different can of worms...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sigh. You are again ignoring things.

the discussion is whether or not abortion is murder.

Do you mean murder as a noun or a verb?





Now to even begin discussing this, you must first determine what makes a human being.

human being
–noun
1. any individual of the genus Homo, esp. a member of the species Homo sapiens.
2. a person, esp. as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species:

Ok, an individual. Which is:


Is a 3 week old fetus capable of independant existence? Most would say no. In fact:




So if the fetus is not capable of survival, it is not an individual. if it is not an individual, it is not yet a human being by definition. If it is not a human being, it cannot be murdered.


Any argument to the contrary gets into a philosophical debate. Ala- it is a person when it has a soul. When does it have a soul? Many religions claim this to be at different times. Which is correct? And should religious beliefs take precedence in a legislative decision? That's a totally different can of worms...

Twisting again I see. So tell me what is the chance a human "fetus" will come out a grapefruit? A Zebra? Or well anything other than a Human?

 

[Luissa]

Twisting again I see. So tell me what is the chance a human "fetus" will come out a grapefruit? A Zebra? Or well anything other than a Human?

If you can't carry a baby in your womb you shouldn't be able to tell a women if she can or cannot. When you can start having babies then you can have a say!