Must we thank (1) Jefferson’s God, or (2) Trump’s God or (3) no God or (4) or just the founders themselves

[NotfooledbyW]

Viability? All babies are viable if you do not abort them.

stop the barbaric procedure of removing life from where life grows, inside the womb, which deserves more protections than anything else in this world.

So to have a Jesus police state protect the “life” inside every uterus where life grows / do you white Christian Jesus do-gooders with high tech innovations, implant chips in girls 10 and up to monitor menstrual cycles ? Then, if a fertile female misses a period, you get a search warrant to go in and inspect the uterus to see what is going on?

Or is what happens in a uterus a private matter / and we need to keep the Christian National state JESUS POLICE out.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Zygotes, are 99.999999999999% viable.

does that % mean an 8 week zygote can survive outside the womb and continue to grow and become a living breathing thinking human being.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Years later a left wing Court found a "right to privacy" that did not appear in the Constitution to justify the killing of millions of unborn children.

NFBW: There is no recognition of legal and constitutional rights to “unborn children” in the Constitution. The rights of the fetus during pregnancy are therefore tied to the rights of the mother. The mother’s rights supersede any rights to the fetus. The mother holds all rights to determine what happens in her body.

If you have a religious or humanist or spiritual or even scientific view that sacred life begins at fertilization, and that a fetus in your body or your partners body, then don’t get pregnant unless you both decide you will give it your God’s right to life that you personally believe to be true.

END2210061303

 

[elektra]

So you meant to say abortion rights based on privacy like the Roe vs Wade ruling was unforeseable. OK. What’s the point? Please use words that mean what want to say next time.

Privacy?

So to have a Jesus police state protect the “life” inside every uterus where life grows / do you white Christian Jesus do-gooders with high tech innovations, implant chips in girls 10 and up to monitor menstrual cycles ? Then, if a fertile female misses a period, you get a search warrant to go in and inspect the uterus to see what is going on?

Or is what happens in a uterus a private matter / and we need to keep the Christian National state JESUS POLICE out.

Yes, that is exactly what we want.

For a bigot you sure figured things out. Except how to substantiate your OP while keeping your thread clean

 

[elektra]

NFBW: There is no recognition of legal and constitutional rights to “unborn children” in the Constitution. The rights of the fetus during pregnancy are therefore tied to the rights of the mother. The mother’s rights supersede any rights to the fetus. The mother holds all rights to determine what happens in her body.

If you have a religious or humanist or spiritual or even scientific view that sacred life begins at fertilization, and that a fetus in your body or your partners body, then don’t get pregnant unless you both decide you will give it your God’s right to life that you personally believe to be true.

END2210061303

A woman has no right to kill life.

The tragedy is you do not value all life

 

[NotfooledbyW]

A woman has no right to kill life.

it’s her body - What authority do you have the right to tell her what to do with it when there is no harm to any viable human being if she terminates a pregnancy prior to viability?

If you think not-viable life is protected because of your religion because it is sacred then do not terminate a pregnancy that you personally created, like hillbilly Christian Herschel Walker did when he claims to be a believer in a religion that is against abortion.

When you can show me your Jesus laws in the constitution that abortion is illegal quit trying to force your religious laws on me and everybody else that does not want them or need them or to be harassed by them.

END2210061424

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The tragedy is you do not value all life

I value all human life including life in the womb twice when I was the father. My wife could not take the pill so after our second kid I got myself snipped. That way way I didn’t ever need to pay for an abortion. I am no Jesus hypocrite like Herschel Walker. The man is an asshole clinging on to Jesus’ robe.

My opposition to abortion in my life is my values. it comes from me. I am not like you @elelktra. I would never force my opinion on any other law abiding American ever.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Here is a good read that I came upon that I want to share with all, but especially those who insist that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. I am hard pressed to imagine how that view can be reconciled with the information in this piece. All opinions are welcome

Here are 5 founding fathers whose skepticism about Christianity would make them unelectable today

Error | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum ( selected excerpts)

To hear the Religious Right tell it, men like George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were 18th-century versions of Jerry Falwell in powdered wigs and stockings. Nothing could be further from the truth.
There you have it folks!!

1. George Washington. The father of our country was nominally an Anglican but seemed more at home with Deism. The language of the Deists sounds odd to today’s ears because it’s a theological system of thought that has fallen out of favor. Deists believed in God but didn’t necessarily see him as active in human affairs. The god of the Deists was a god of first cause. He set things in motion and then stepped back.
Click to expand...

2. John Adams. The man who followed Washington in office was a Unitarian, although he was raised a Congregationalist and never officially left that church. Adams rejected belief in the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, core concepts of Christian dogma. In his personal writings, Adams makes it clear that he considered some Christian dogma to be incomprehensible.
Click to expand...

As president, Adams signed the famous Treaty of Tripoli, which boldly stated, “[T]he government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion….”

3. Thomas Jefferson. It’s almost impossible to define Jefferson’s subtle religious views in a few words. As he once put it, “I am a sect by myself, as far as I know.” But one thing is clear: His skepticism of traditional Christianity is well established. Our third president did not believe in the Trinity, the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, the resurrection, original sin and other core Christian doctrines. He was hostile to many conservative Christian clerics, whom he believed had perverted the teachings of that faith.
Click to expand...

Jefferson once famously observed to Adams, “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

4. James Madison. Jefferson’s close ally would be similarly unelectable today. Madison is perhaps the most enigmatic of all the founders when it comes to religion. To this day, scholars still debate his religious views.

Madison was perhaps the strictest church-state separationist among the founders, taking stands that make the ACLU look like a bunch of pikers. He opposed government-paid chaplains in Congress and in the military. As president, Madison rejected a proposed census because it involved counting people by profession. For the government to count the clergy, Madison said, would violate the First Amendment.
Click to expand...

5. Thomas Paine. Paine never held elective office, but he played an important role as a pamphleteer whose stirring words helped rally Americans to independence. Washington ordered that Paine’s pamphlet “The American Crisis” be read aloud to the Continental Army as a morale booster on Dec. 23, 1776. “Common Sense” was similarly popular with the people. These seminal documents were crucial to winning over the public to the side of independence.
Click to expand...

So Paine’s a hero, right? He was also a radical Deist whose later work, The Age of Reason, still infuriates fundamentalists.

There you have it
NFBW: I see no need to thank any version of anyone’s “GOD” for America, I thank the above list of humans for America.

And I want to thank all the Enlightenment thinkers for the multicultural pluralistic nation that America has become and for the ideas of liberal democracy, the separation of church and state, and freedom of conscience and rational religion and tolerance by a Jewish Enlightened philosopher - Benedict Spinoza.

in fact, old Amsterdam, in Holland, where the great foreshadowing of what came to be called liberal democracy was embodied in a Jew.​

​

Boston.com / News / Boston Globe / Opinion / Op-ed / America's Jewish founding father

​

Benedict Spinoza (1632-77) was a bridge figure between the religious tradition of Rabbinic Judaism and the philosophy of the Enlightenment. In his political writings, one sees, for example, the clear influence of Lurianic Kabbalah, an established Jewish spirituality. It is a small step from the idea that "emanations" of God inhabit the souls of all humans, to the idea that each person, taken individually, is as worthy as every other. That idea is the kernel of democracy. Political tolerance -- what we would call pluralism -- is rooted in this positive attribute.​

No Jew signed the Declaration of Independence; no Jew signed the United States Constitution. I admire Jews, respect Judaism, and love Israel, but let's be sure of our facts

NFBW: Can we create a category called “Founding Grandfather” and start the list with an Enlightenment Jew?

END2210061817

 

[NotfooledbyW]

How about Haym Salomon? He was a Founding Father who was basically ignored because of his religion.

Thanks,

Had not heard about Jewish contributions to the Revolution. I surely thank this member of the founding generation as well.

https://www.chabad.org › library › article_cdoHaym Salomon: The Man Who Financed the American Revolution​

Jul 03, 2021 · Haym Salomon: The Man Who Financed the American Revolution A Jewish American Hero By Yosef Kaufmann October 17, 1781. An eerie silence takes hold over the battlefield...


A BEAUTIFUL STORY “Washington simply wrote, “Send for Haym Salomon.” Within days, Haym Salomon had raised the $20,000 needed for what proved to be the decisive victory of the Revolution.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Privacy?

NFBW: Yes privacy. If a woman’s Reproductive organs are not private, I don’t know what it is. Have you ever heard that expression about the genital region on humans? They call ‘em private parts. 2210062001

 

[NotfooledbyW]

NFBW: A couple of Posters on this message board who found it necessary to convert Jefferson to the likes of a Hershel Walker Trump Republican Christian:

ELEKTRA140501-#129 “Why does Thomas Jefferson, state, "So much for your quotation of Calvin's `mon dieu! jusqu'a quand' in which, when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and await his time and will with more readiness than reluctance."

Porter_Rockwell200210-#1,141 When Thomas Jefferson penned the words to the Declaration of Independence, he obviously believed in God from a Christian perspective.

The simple test to determine if a poster has submitted to the false narrative that America was founded as a Christian Nation is their need for some unexplainable reason to insist that Thomas Jefferson is a Christian see above.

NFBW200923-#266
Correll said: “Your were making the argument that they did not found this nation as a Christian Nation because they were such anti-Catholic bigots, but now you are saying that they embraced religious freedom”

NFBW: My argument and the truth is that America was founded by non-Christians and Protestant Christians as they were engaged in framing a Constitutional form of government in Philadelphia. The Christians wanted Christianity to be the official religion of the new nation. The non-Christians wanted no mention of Protestant anti-Catholic Christianity mentioned in the new set of laws for the land. The non-Christians prevailed. They won. The Protestants lost. CATHOLICS were never in the game even though most Christians in the world were Catholic.

But you say the Christians won and a Christian Nation was formed. That’s how big is your lie. You have the losers win and the winners lose.

Jefferson hoped Protestant Christianity would dissipate and die out in the new Republic. He certainly did not want Catholicism to take Its place.

Amid the proliferation of upstart Protestants in the early republic, Jefferson’s countermeasures amounted to symbolic resistance. He found the birth of popular Protestantism a foreboding development, writing to a friend in 1822, “The atmosphere of our country is unquestioningly charged with a threatening cloud of fanaticism, lighter in some parts, denser in others, but too heavy in all.” Jefferson had expected that disestablishment would weaken religion, especially revealed religion. He believed, as Immanuel Kant put it, “if only freedom is granted, enlightenment is sure to follow.” Thomas Jefferson and the Origins of American Religious Nationalism

You have no thoughts of your own

NFBW: I posted the above “thoughts of my own” so you can see that you are wrong.

Another thought of my own is that Votto is correct. Jefferson rejected the Deity of Christ and therefore he is not a Christian in the sense that Trump’s evangelical Christian practice the religion of Christianity.
Votto220915-#25

Billy000 said: “My OP basically says it. Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson.”

Votto: “Although Jefferson was reluctant to talk about his personal beliefs in public, his private letters revealed that he was a deeply spiritual man who spent quite a considerable time thinking about God. It is true that he rejected the Deity of Christ, however.”

END2210062126

 

[elektra]

it’s her body - What authority do you have the right to tell her what to do with it when there is no harm to any viable human being if she terminates a pregnancy prior to viability?

If you think not-viable life is protected because of your religion because it is sacred then do not terminate a pregnancy that you personally created, like hillbilly Christian Herschel Walker did when he claims to be a believer in a religion that is against abortion.

When you can show me your Jesus laws in the constitution that abortion is illegal quit trying to force your religious laws on me and everybody else that does not want them or need them or to be harassed by them.

END2210061424

Life, she is sharing her body, what right does anybidy have to destroy life, her body is the home, the host, to another human

What right do i have, everyone is using my government my tax dollars, our hospitals, our doctors, it is not just up to one woman?

Her body? That gives her special rights to kill?

And how do we kill these days, needle in the skull?

 

[elektra]

I value all human life including life in the womb twice when I was the father. My wife could not take the pill so after our second kid I got myself snipped. That way way I didn’t ever need to pay for an abortion. I am no Jesus hypocrite like Herschel Walker. The man is an asshole clinging on to Jesus’ robe.

My opposition to abortion in my life is my values. it comes from me. I am not like you @elelktra. I would never force my opinion on any other law abiding American ever.

You are attenting to force your opinion of abortion on everyone else.

It is time to quit the needless baby killing

 

[elektra]

Have you ever heard that expression about the genital region on humans? They call ‘em private parts.

Yes private parts, so now you are claiming another life is the same as a woman's breasts or vagina.

Sorry, that life evolving inside a woman is not a private part. Biologically it is a seperate life.

 

[elektra]

NFBW: A couple of Posters on this message board who found it necessary to convert Jefferson to the likes of a Hershel Walker Trump Republican Christian:

ELEKTRA140501-#129 “Why does Thomas Jefferson, state, "So much for your quotation of Calvin's `mon dieu! jusqu'a quand' in which, when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and await his time and will


NFBW: I posted the above “thoughts of my own” so you can see that you are wrong.

The thoughts that are yours, are certainly wrong.

You dug up a post of mine over 8 years old and implied I was connecting Trump to Jefferson based on that post. You implied much and stretched the truth.

And you continue to the same.

You dont answer all the questions thst are asked.

You skip over and ignore all the replies, where I show how wrong you are. Your rants in this thread certainly contain some fact, but your narrative, your comments has shown the bigoted side of you.

The bigoted side of you is putting words into my mouth, which is fine. I learn much as I go.

You have really distorted every issue you brought up in your thread.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Life, she is sharing her body,

NFBW: I submit the following paragraph to enhance this discussion;

"Personhood declares that humans are human and that our equality is based on our humanness. Nothing changes the scientific fact that we are biologically human from the very beginning until the very end. Therefore, as humans, we deserve equal protection under the law because we possess inherent, natural rights."​

You seem to be declaring elektra that we are all biologically human from the moment of conception with no distinction as to what is known to be the human state of being either biologically viable or biologically unviable. Am I correct about that?

Also can we agree to stick to a facts based discussion here, by regarding the precise clinical use of the word “viable” or “viability” as follows;

While the concept of a viable and nonviable pregnancy is relatively easy to grasp, it is governed by strict definitions. From a clinical perspective, a viable pregnancy is one in which the baby can be born and have a reasonable chance of survival. By contrast, a nonviable pregnancy is one in which the fetus or baby has no chance of being born alive.​

Based upon clinical viability as described above, then, It is a fact that a woman who becomes pregnant is a viable human who possesses inherent, natural rights and you and I elektra are both viable human beings. do you agree with that thus far?

END2210070727

 

[elektra]

"Personhood declares that humans are human and that our equality is based on our humanness. Nothing changes the scientific fact that we are biologically human from the very beginning until the very end. Therefore, as humans, we deserve equal protection under the law because we possess inherent, natural rights."​

You seem to be declaring elektra that we are all biologically human from the moment of conception with no distinction as to what is known to be the human state of being either biologically viable or biologically unviable. Am I correct about that?

Also can we agree to stick to a facts based discussion here, by regarding the precise clinical use of the word “viable” or “viability” as follows;

While the concept of a viable and nonviable pregnancy is relatively easy to grasp, it is governed by strict definitions. From a clinical perspective, a viable pregnancy is one in which the baby can be born and have a reasonable chance of survival. By contrast, a nonviable pregnancy is one in which the fetus or baby has no chance of being born alive.​

Based upon clinical viability as decibel above then, It is a fact that a woman who becomes pregnant is a viable human who possesses inherent, natural rights and you and I elektra are both viable human beings. do you agree with that thus far?END2210070727

You did not know the zygote stage of pregnancy is very brief, and now you are going to state what I know based on your knowlege.

You were lost yesterday but today you can lecture me.

When in pregnancy does a baby have thoughts. Answer that.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The human zygote is a human zygote. Why do you change the wording? Two things that are different cannot be the same and science. A human Zygote is not a living breathing human like it’s mother. You cannot cite science to argue that it is.

Ding220716-#2,279 “DNA says otherwise.”

BackAgain220719-#2,428 “I don’t recall mentioning “completely viable.””

NFBW: I do not recall the US Constitution mentioning unborn. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. I also do not believe that a zygote can apply for naturalized US citizenship on its own because it would have to pass a test, and take an oath to uphold the Constitution and it has no concept of self and cannot speak. But a zygot is a developing human life dependent on its mother. That much is scientifically true as you say. END2207191134

No. Do you have a point? There is a difference between a zygote and a breathing newborn or dont you see it?

NFBW: The Constitution does not say that a living human zygote inside a woman’s body has a right to continue developing if the woman does not want it. Nor does the Constitution say that terminating a living human zygote is homicide.

ITS A LIVING Human ZYGOTE in the womb of a human being that is terminated - no one is terminating a human being. No scientists you have cited call a human zygote a human being, to transform a zygote into something god commands you not terminate you have follow Catholic doctrine called Humana Vitae

the DNA of a zygote means the zygote is still a zygote and not a human being.

zygote is the beginning of a new human being.

This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning

BackAgain220721-#3,747 Our Constitution clearly guarantees the right to life, etc.

NFBW wrote: Not for living human zygotes or any other cells and tissue with individual DNA while “it” is existing unborn inside the uterus and womb of an impregnated human being who owns the womb.


BackAgain220721-#3,747 Science absolutely says that a human zygote is a human life.

NFBW: Show the actual science where they say a zygote is a developed complete functional human being if separated from its natural life support system. END2207210959

I explicitly said “. I refute ( @ding ) your mischaracterization of the alleged science that says a human being is instantly created at conception as it is contained in Catholic doctrine.”

A ZYGOTE is not a human life - it is a living developing human zygote that will become a human life at some point unless the pregnancy is terminated.

Don’t need laws to be passed dumbass. You are saying that a zygote is a human being with a right to life just like you and me. It is already against the law to murder a human being.

NFBW2207251711-#3,900 “You are saying that a zygote is a human being with a right to life just like you and me.

ding220725-#3,902 “Is that what I said? Can you show me where I said that

NFBW: Assuming the zygote in your imaginary science world @ding deserves the same sanctity of life as you and I and @beagle9 do.

ding220724-#3,855 “I believe that after fertilization the zygote is a living human being in the earliest stage of its human life cycle.”

ding220719-#3,651 220719-#3,659 “The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is not one of personhood but of development. That's what they say.”

NFBW: The human development continuum @CarsomyrPlusSix that begins after fertilization @ding and ends in death @beagle9 has one major line of demarcation that you all have chosen to ignore. It is the ultimate in “difference” between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage. It is not a difference of personhood. It is a difference of development to the milestone of viability and capability and consciousness and environment of the new unique individual.

Based on that scientific, spiritual and easily recognized and observable fact by cognizant human beings, the death or end of the non-viable human formation of cells prior to viability is not subject to the same legal and/ or moral penalty as the death after viability if terminated by another including the mother. Prior to viability the decision to continue or end a pregnancy is a private matter and all human societies and governments should respect that privacy and sacred right. END2208120636

NFBW: What planet do you live on. You are forcing women to give up eight months of freedom to serve a brainless heartless non-breathing zygote when it is none of your fucking business what goes on inside her body. END2209013239

The embryonic period of development lasts from two weeks after conception through the eighth week, during which time the organism is known as an embryo.1 At the ninth week post-conception, the fetal period begins. From this point until birth, the organism is known as a fetus.

The zygote then travels down the fallopian tube to the uterus. As it travels, its cells rapidly divide and it becomes a blastocyst. Once in the uterus, the blastocyst must implant in the lining in order to obtain the nourishment it needs to grow and survive.

So when the egg cell “thing” disappears because it’s been fertilized, so whatever it becomes does not have a brain, does it? if a lay person refers to the glop of cells that become part of the uterus as a fertilized egg what is the difference, a zygote, a blastocyst , an embryo does not have a brain. Yet you want me to believe that a brainless thing is a human being and a person. . You are being absurd.,

You are full of shit according to Britannica;

• Zygote, fertilized egg cell that results from the union of a female gamete (egg, or ovum) with a male gamete ( sperm ). zygote | Definition, Development, Example, & Facts | Britannica www.britannica.com/science/zygote

zygote
/ˈzaɪˌgoʊt/
noun
plural zygotes
[count] biology

: a cell that is formed when an egg and a sperm combine : a fertilized egg

IA zygote is a fertilized ovum. That is a fertilized egg.

You can see for yourself @ClaireH that I am right and @CarsomyrPlusSix is wrong.

Just citing dictionaries - You can’t cite anything

Image: liveactionnews.org

• A zygote, also known as a fertilized ovum or fertilized egg, is the union of a sperm cell and an egg cell.

What Is a Zygote? Stages of Conception and Early Pregnancy​

www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-a-zygote-2796031


NFBW; You are a fraud and so full of shut I’ll bet ClaireH can smell you.


Zygote / also known as a fertilized ovum or fertilized egg

Zygote / also known as a fertilized ovum or fertilized egg

There is only one egg involved when it is fertilized by a single sperm, The sperm and egg fuse to become a fertilized egg, also called a zygote.

Scientists do not assign value to a one cell brainless zygote because it would not be scientific to do so. The Constitution values human life at birth.

I am not pro-abort. I am pro-choice that enables women to terminate a pregnancy within 24 weeks from when a zygote is formed in her fallopian tube. A one celled zygote is not a human being..A one celled zygote is zygote. Scientists do not refer to a zygote as a human being.

You claim a one celled zygote is a human being. That is at least 20 some trillion human cells short of being viable you effing biological dimwit. END2209190919

Run and hide with @ClaireH and @ding . I said the “process” the biological “process” of pregnancy can kill the mother and would be responsible for her death / not the one cell zygotes or any stage of developed being after

NFBW: Practicing physicians do not share your religious belief that a one cell zygote is a equal in value to a fully viable human being. It’s your definition of life that is meaningless in the real world outside of your white rightwing Christian Trump voter world.

You are not making a valid point.

END2209222005

It is absurd to rule that abortion rights do not exist because not mentioned in the Constitution But a zygote has a right to be carried full term despite no mention in the Constitution.

Are you saying a one-celled zygote with no brain lungs or heart is a viable baby?

does that % mean an 8 week zygote can survive outside the womb and continue to grow and become a living breathing thinking human being.

You did not know the zygote stage of pregnancy is very brief,

As I understand it and I have no expertise on it, but there are three stages In a pregnancy,

1. This two-week stage is known as the germinal period of development and covers the time of fertilization (also called conception) to the implantation of the blastocyst in the uterus.
2. The embryonic period of development lasts from two weeks after conception through the eighth week, during which time the organism is known as an embryo.
3. At the ninth week post-conception, the fetal period begins. From this point until birth, the organism is known as a fetus.

When a Zygote Becomes an Embryo ​

Zygotes divide through a process known as mitosis, in which each cell doubles (one cell becomes two, two becomes four, and so on). This two-week stage is known as the germinal period of development and covers the time of fertilization (also called conception) to the implantation of the blastocyst in the uterus.​

​

NFBW: so technically elektra at 8 weeks I should have referred to (it) the (organism) as a embryo in my question instead of a zygote - you are absolutely correct oh American Taliban!!!! - must I cut off a finger and mail it to you as for the sin of inferring that an embryo is a lowlife zygote?

END2210070918

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You dug up a post of mine over 8 years old and implied I was connecting Trump to Jefferson based on that post.

Really, I implied that? How?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

ELEKTRA160524-#2 “One must thank God, we are Americans”

@elektra by default picks (2) based on the fact that the God of Jesus is Trump’s pick not TJ’s

ELEKTRA160524-#2 “One must thank God, we are Americans”

You dug up a post of mine over 8 years old and implied I was connecting Trump to Jefferson