Must we thank (1) Jefferson’s God, or (2) Trump’s God or (3) no God or (4) or just the founders themselves

[NotfooledbyW]

Your premise is false, unless you can prove or offer an explanation.

NFBW: Premise: The religious belief’s of the founding fathers are tied to the politics of abortion the past 50 years

By that I mean there has been a major politically and religiously motivated organization and movement sparked by the Supreme Court decision in the early 70s known as roe versus wade. The abortion ruling strengthened this movement by mostly white evangelical protestants and politically conservative Catholics who insist that abortion must be banned on a moral principle of religious belief that the founding fathers were Christians And such a ban would have been their intent that all men are created by a Judeo Christian Biblical God to be equal. So what do you find to be false about that elektra ?

END2210071724

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Jefferson, taking a sentence, a paragraph, from a google search is an extremely lazy way to prove any point you are making of jefferson.

NFBW: Do you mean like you did?

ELEKTRA140501-#129 “Why does Thomas Jefferson, state, "So much for your quotation of Calvin's `mon dieu! jusqu'a quand' in which, when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and await his time and will with more readiness than reluctance."


NFBW: In other words quote one paragraph that if one did not read the entire letter you could fool whoever listened to you into believing Jefferson believed in the revealed religion and divinity of Jesus and in Calvinism.

When here is what the letter is about.

Jefferson: - The wishes expressed, in your last favor, that I may continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at least in his exclamation of `_mon Dieu!_ jusque a quand'! would make me immortal. I can never join Calvin in addressing _his god._ He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If oever man worshipped a false god, he did. ​

​

The being described in his 5. points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. ​

​

It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin.​

​

Indeed I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a god. Now one sixth of mankind only are supposed to be Christians: the other five sixths then, who do not believe in the Jewish and Christian revelation, are without a knolege of the existence of a god!​

​

This gives compleatly a gain de cause to the disciples of Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa, Diderot and D'Holbach. The argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is that, in every hypothesis of Cosmogony you must admit an eternal pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy, you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will suffice. They say then that it is more simple to believe at once in the eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may for ever go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend. On the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it's parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to percieve and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it's composition.​

Jefferson writes “On the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, …

Republican white Trump Christians believe in a revealed religion GOD.

END2210072119

 

[Mashmont]

Exactly.
I hope most states opt for abortion laws like the civilized EU countries have:
Abort up to a limit, 12-15 weeks, then no abortions allowed.

"Civilized EU Countries" trail the US in everything good. So why would we want to be like them?

 

[lennypartiv]

I am a bit perhaps a lot, like Washington Adams Madison and Jefferson Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine and very much so Ethan Allen of the founding generation when in comes to rational theism as my belief in God.

Franklin was the exception. He was a hedonist. He was a member of the Hellfire club.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Franklin was the exception. He was a hedonist. He was a member of the Hellfire club.

I know that Franklin did not believe in Original Sin.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Most people with an education will concur thst without a copy of jefferson's letters, which are published in 14 volumes, without readung Jefferson's letters, you can not make statements of Jefferson's beliefs.​

NFBW: I have read probably every letter Jefferson wrote regarding his religious beliefs. I read them on the most official WEBSITE not a book.

Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

The trusted source for information on Thomas Jefferson and his world

www.monticello.org

NFBW200220-#1,140

#1140 Porter Rockwell reply #1134 to #1132 “Reference to God in the Declaration of Independence is DEIST not Protestant Christian.”

“In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.” Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

#1134

IF your dumb ass were a student of history, Jefferson made NO statement about his views as they were private. But, what he signed his name to left no doubt... unless you want to call him a liar.

#188

If you had read this thread, I proved, unequivocally, that Jefferson was a Christian. I am not going to argue what has been established as fact..

#1140 FOR THE RECORD: All readers now have a choice. Who is to be believed on the issue of whether Thomas Jefferson was a Christian or not?

(A) Porter Rockwell

(B) The finest Jefferson historians at MONTICELLO Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello


“JEFFERSON AND CHRISTIANITY
While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10 In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs
An Article Courtesy Of The Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia. Click For More.
Thomas Jefferson’s religious beliefs have long been a subject of public discussion,

#1149 it’s exactly as I have said:

“Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10. Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

#1140. For the record, I choose (B). How about you Correll?

END200210

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Most people with an education will concur thst without a copy of jefferson's letters, which are published in 14 volumes, without readung Jefferson's letters, you can not make statements of Jefferson's beliefs.

NFBW: I have access to every letter Jefferson wrote and has been posted on-line. Here is one.

I have made the font bold where Jefferson is defining his religion that is in contrast to one of the most eminent Christian Ministers of the founding generation, … underlined and in bold are significantly attached to my personal spiritual religious beliefs.

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

Thomas Jefferson to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819​

To Ezra Stiles Ely​

Monticello June 25. 19.
Your favor Sir, of the 14th has been duly recieved, and with it the book you were so kind as to forward to me. for this mark of attention be pleased to accept my thanks. the science of the human mind is curious, but it is one on which I have not indulged myself in much speculation. the times in which I have lived, and the scenes in which I have been engaged, have required me to keep the mind too much in action to have leisure to study minutely it’s laws of action. I am therefore little qualified to give an opinion on the comparative worth of books on that subject, and little disposed to do it on any book. your’s has brought the science within a small compass and that is a merit ofthe 1st order; and especially with one to whom the drudgery of letter writing often denies the leisure of reading a single page in a week. on looking over the summary of the contents of your book, it does not seem likely to bring into collision any of those sectarian differences which you suppose may exist between us. in that branch of religion which regards the moralities of life, and the duties of a social being, which teaches us to love our neighbors as ourselves, and to do good to all men, I am sure that you & I do not differ. we probably differ on that which relates to the dogmas of theology, the foundation of all sectarianism, and on which no two sects dream alike; for if they did they would then be of the same. you say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know. I am not a Jew: and therefore do not adopt their theology, which supposes the god of infinite justice to punish the sins of the fathers upon their children, unto the 3d and 4th generation: and the benevolent and sublime reformer of that religion has told us only that god is good and perfect, but has not defined him. I am therefore of his theology, believing that we have neither words nor ideas adequate to that definition. and if we could all, after his example, leave the subject as undefinable, we should all be of one sect, doers of good & eschewers of evil. no doctrines of his lead to schism. it is the speculations of crazy theologists which have made a Babel of a religion the most moral and sublime ever preached to man, and calculated to heal, and not to create differences. these religious animosities I impute to those who call themselves his ministers, and who engraft their casuistries on the stock of his simple precepts. I am sometimes more angry with them than is authorised by the blessed charities which he preached. to yourself I pray the acceptance of my great respect.

Founders Online: Thomas Jefferson to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819

Thomas Jefferson to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819

founders.archives.gov

Then, do a little search to find out what a Calvinist Minister in 1783 believed about governing.

In 1777, Stiles became pastor of North Church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. As pastor, he defended the monarchy as the best form of government in his sermon, entitled The United States elevated to Glory and Honor, to the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut in 1783. He stated that "a monarchy conducted with infinite wisdom and infinite benevolence is the most perfect of all possible governments."​

​

NFBW; Jefferson was a rational theist who believed nothing was true about Jesus’ divinity and was a major leader and founder of self government that include the ideal of separation if church and state. To me the words of Jefferson to Ezra Stiles make any messsge in the present that makes the argument that America was founded as a Christian Nation is flawed and absolutely absurd.​

END2210080142​

 

[NotfooledbyW]

SOME Christians might have wanted some official recognition of Christian Religion in the Constitution. Other Christians disagreed and no such mention was made and the focus on Religious Freedom.;

That is not a defeat for Christians as a group. NOr does it change the fact that the nation that was founded, was massively Christian.

elektra221002-#496 “Our[sp] laws are based on biblical laws

Your premise is false

NFBW: Correll is one of your fellow right wing posters who claims “the nation [America] that was founded, was massively Christian.” but he does admit that the Constitution ended up with no mention of Christianity or divinity of Jesus Christ with respect to Biblical Law.

Are you saying elektra that our Constitution and constitutional government were created and are based on Biblical laws. If so, please name some of them, or do you agree with Correll ?

END2210080418

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Trump As Thomas Jefferson put it, "[T]he mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God." The only source of the legitimate powers of government is the consent of the governed. This is the cornerstone principle of American government, society, and independence.

You dug up a post of mine over 8 years old and implied I was connecting Trump to Jefferson based on that post.

elektra160524-0453#2 “One must thank God, we are Americans.”​

​

​

Why is America Exceptional? By Matthew Spalding, Ph.D.​

​

As Thomas Jefferson put it, "[T]he mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God." The only source of the legitimate powers of government is the consent of the governed. This is the cornerstone principle of American government, society, and independence.​

​

America's principles establish religious liberty as a fundamental right. It is in our nature to pursue our convictions of faith. Government must not establish an official religion, just as it must guarantee the free exercise of religion. Indeed, popular government requires a flourishing of religious faith. If a free people are to govern themselves politically, they must first govern themselves morally.​

​

​

NFBW: I agree with Matthew Spalding, Ph.D. with my mind heart and soul elektra that America's unique and exceptional principles establish religious liberty as a fundamental right. The question before you, as one premise of this thread, is why “must” anyone thank the Judeo-Christian God and presumably Author of Scripture, (The Holy Bible) and Father of Jesus Christ Almighty and sole creator of the entire universe and everything in it, because we are Americans?

It was men like Jefferson quoted above who established religious liberty as a fundamental right. It was not his God, so it was definitely not the Biblical revealed religion God who had a following on earth that at the time in the British Colonies that America be founded as a Christian Nation.

So, elektra why did you write, on the record here, that we must thank your version of God because you and I are Americans?

END2210080605

 

[elektra]

Those that owned slaves have zero respect from this american born citizen.

I can understand that thought. Yet, what if you were born in Virginia in 1743. Born as that son of a rich white man. Your father dies when you are 14 years old.

You now own 5000 acres of land, dozens of slaves.

Jefferson gets married, his wife's father dies, you now own 1600 acres and are the 2nd largest slave owner in Virginia.

I can not imagine that, but I do imagine if you are born surrounded by slaves, all your social interactions are with slave owners, everywhere you go you see slaves, I imagine under those circumstances one would see slavery as normal.

Jefferson went to school, became a lawyer and politician. Jefferson when very young as a lawyer represented a mulatto slave in court, a mulatto who claimed he was free because his mother was white. Jefferson lost the case, but the mulatto lived on Jefferson's estate, and was paid wages for his work.

A different time indeed. I can respect a man who was born in those times who demonstrated bravery, against everything his was taught. Bravery, to go to war is one thing, but to go against what the majority of the society in which you were a part of, is much different and in many ways much harder to do.

I can respect Jefferson, he was thrown into a fire, and like a fire, in the world that Jefferson lived, you could no more free the slaves as you could let a pack of wolves loose in a city. And, Jefferson said as much, "better to hold a wolf by it's muzzle than to set it free."

 

[elektra]

I see I have reached the pinnacle of your intellectual, moral, and decency capabilities

you have not been decent in your entire thread, you have intentionally trolled and flamed those of us you disagree with, so you needed to see exactly how I feel about your bigotry you repeatedly display, your ignorance, your gullibility, your hateful bigotry is really what sticks out in many of your posts.

You define things as you see fit, and whatever pinnacle that you perceive I am at, just know you are far beneath, in a cesspool at the least.

 

[elektra]

NFBW: I have access to every letter Jefferson wrote and has been posted on-line. Here is one.

Yet, you continue on in ignorance. Having access is much different than having knowledge.

Here is one for you, if you can call owning a book as to having access.

To Doctor Benjamin Rush Washington, April 21, 1803... I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other.

Thomas Jefferson confiding that he is a Christian in a letter to a personal friend. Jefferson goes on in the letter expressing that he knows that the friend will keep Jefferson's beliefs confidential, between the two of them. Like Trump, the media of the time, and Jefferson's political opponents, were persecuting Jefferson, as you do today. Jefferson wished his beliefs to be private. Sad that people were as despicable than, as they, you are now.

I must say, your premise, about different gods, and presidents and peoples worshiping different gods, and that is why Roe vs. Wade was overturned, certainly turned out not how you had hoped.

We can all see know, how your belief in Google Search, re-enforced you false ideas.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Here is one for you, if you can call owning a book as to having access.


Thomas Jefferson confiding that he is a Christian in a letter to a personal friend. Jefferson goes on in the letter expressing that he knows that the friend will keep Jefferson's beliefs confidential, between the two of them.

NFBW: Jefferson is referring to the corruptions of Christianity that he opposes. From other writing corruption means the corruption of theologians who made Jesus Christ the savior, the son of God, who died and was resurrected to forgive original sin. Jefferson believed in none of that corruption.

The Syllabus that Jefferson refers to in this letter is his copy of the Bible that he cut out all the ‘corruption’ and left only the teaching of JESUS because he believed Jesus to be a great man, normal human with great ethics and great teaching skills.


Jefferson to Rush in the complete thought. “the Christian religion was sometimes our topic: and I then promised you that, one day or other, I would give you my views of it. they are the result of a life of enquiry & reflection, and very different from that Anti-Christian system, imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. to the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human2 excellence, & believing he never claimed any other. at the short3 intervals, since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract my mind from public affairs,4 this subject has been under my contemplation. but the more I considered it, the more it expanded beyond the measure of either my time or information. in the moment of my late departure from Monticello,5 I recieved from Doctr. Priestly his little treatise of ‘Socrates & Jesus compared.’ this being a section of the general view I had taken of the field, it became a subject of reflection, while on the road, and unoccupied otherwise. the result was, to arrange in my mind a Syllabus, or Outline, of such an Estimate of the comparative merits of Christianity, as I wished to see executed, by some one of more leisure and information for the task than myself. this I now send you, as the only discharge of my promise I can probably ever execute. and, in confiding it to you, I know it will not be exposed to the malignant perversions of those who make6 every word from me a text for new misrepresentations & calumnies. I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public; because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself that Inquisition over the rights of 7 conscience, which the laws have so justly proscribed. it behoves every man, who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others;8 or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. it behoves him too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independant opinion, by answering questions of faith, which the laws have left between god & himself. Accept my affectionate salutations.

Th: Jefferson



Founders Online: From Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 21 April 1803


You will hear more from me about exposing your fraud attempt in Post #152 because that is part of the reason why I started this thread. To expose white Christian Nationalist fraud about our rational theist and not Christian as Christian has been defined for centuries after centuries.

END2210081847

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Thomas Jefferson confiding that he is a Christian in a letter to a personal friend. Jefferson goes on in the letter expressing that he knows that the friend will keep Jefferson's beliefs confidential, between the two of them.

NFBW: Way ahead of you. Click #537 to see thread where this was addressed in rebuttal to @PorterRockwell and ding by me back in 2020.

NFBW200125-#537 Fact One: You posted a brief sentence from a Jefferson letter that he asked to be kept private. I presume that ‘kept private’ because Jefferson was called an atheist and infidel by men of the cloth much of his political life. There are reasons Christian clergy and parishioners considered Jefferson’s atheism made him unfit for office . He never said he believed in the Divinity of Christ. That belief is required of one professing to be a Christian”

 

[NotfooledbyW]

elektra221002-#496 “Our[sp] laws are based on biblical laws”


NFBW: Our laws are based on our Constitution. There is no reference to biblical laws in the Constitution. END2210081945

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I must say, your premise, about different gods, and presidents and peoples worshiping different gods, and that is why Roe vs. Wade was overturned,

NFBW: that is not my premise. this is my premise;

The religious belief’s of the founding fathers are tied to the politics of abortion the past 50 years /

NFBW: Have you read this letter;

To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816. see bold text in except from the whole original.

To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

I am reminded of this duty by the receipt, through our friend Dr. Patterson, of your synopsis of the four Evangelists. I had procured it as soon as I saw it advertised, and had become familiar with its use; but this copy is the more valued as it comes from your hand. This work bears the stamp of that accuracy which marks everything from you, and will be useful to those who, not taking things on trust, recur for themselves to the fountain of pure morals. I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call meinfidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.

END2210082052To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Having access is much different than having knowledge.

NFBW: I have knowledge of the indisputable fact that Jefferson’s adult lifetime of writings show no indication that Jefferson was a Christian who believed the Bible was the Word of God, or who believed in the divinity of Christ. END22100822158

 

[Rust_Cohle]

NFBW: Premise: The religious belief’s of the founding fathers are tied to the politics of abortion the past 50 years / you will have to read the CATHOLIC condemnation of Jefferson and his cult of secular religion if you are interested in finding out why - and more.

ELEKTRA220503-#63 “Abortion is murder if there is a heartbeat”

Must we thank (1) Jefferson’s God, or (2) Trump’s God or (3) no God or (4) just the founders themselves for the creation of exceptional America - The greatest nation in history

NFBW: My choice is (4) because they made (1) thru (3) possible which is what makes America exceptional above all other nations in history.

elektra by default picks (2) based on the fact that the God of Jesus is Trump’s pick not TJ’s

ELEKTRA160524-#2 “One must thank God, we are Americans”

ELEKTRA140501-#129 “Why does Thomas Jefferson, state, "So much for your quotation of Calvin's `mon dieu! jusqu'a quand' in which, when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and await his time and will with more readiness than reluctance."

NFBW: Those who read books about Jefferson’s religion would know that Jefferson was revolted by any man made thought that falsely converted Jesus into a God. The following portrait based on his writing is a great link into the great rational and enlightenment libersl mind of Jefferson

Catholic view / The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson by Donald J. D'Elia Christendom College Press, Fall 1977In the analysis of Thomas Jefferson, which follows, Dr. D 'Elia lays the groundwork for a truly Catholic perception of American history in general, in addition to unveiling an accurate portrait of the man.​

​

Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson​

​

Among the Founding Fathers of the American nation there appears to be none more deserving of the title of "modern man" than the Virginian, Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and third President of the United States. His tall, god-like figure looms over the American past, his name continues to be celebrated in endless books and after-dinner speeches, and his democratic authority must be invoked by every aspiring statesman and grasping politician. Indeed, Jefferson's attraction for modern man has led to the development of a veritable cult whose shrine on the banks of the Potomac draws worshippers from all over the world.​

​

Often it has happened in history and in life itself that a good but naive man's principles have been mercilessly exposed by time to reveal logical implications, which he would have condemned in his own lifetime. Such was notably the case with Thomas Jefferson who, bereft of the Church's wisdom and maternal protection, fell victim to false principles long ago unmasked by Revelation and true philosophy. These false principles, known collectively as liberalism, were made by Jefferson into a kind of religion, as we shall see; and in using the prestige of the presidency to advance this secular religion, Jefferson unwittingly proved himself to be the first of a long line of abusers of the highest office of the land. For the Jeffersonian mentality, despite all good intentions, leads inexorably to moral nihilism and the abortionist Supreme Court of the 1970'​

END2210050259

 

[NotfooledbyW]

electra221003-#561 “John Adams believed in a personal god and life after death. John Adams was a good man, not a sinner. Christian in my book.”

NFBW: Did John Adam’s have to believe in the HOLY TRINITY and confess that he was a sinner to Jesus to become a Christian as the Muslims you brought to our attention who convert are required and willing to do,,

Fred Farrokh wants to change that. Farrokh is executive director of the Jesus for Muslims Network. Raised Muslim, he is now a Christian.

Muslims want to leave Islam, to be Christians,

NFBW: According to Fred Farrokh becoming a Christian means you have to do this:

Identity Development and Transformation in Christ (1/7): Muslim Identity – To Be or Not to Be a Muslim? by Fred Farrokh | Oct 9, 2017​

​

Our goal as ministers of the Gospel is to participate with God in bringing Muslims from a starting point in which they have no real relationship with Jesus Christ to a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Savior, King of kings and Lord of lords.​

​

Identity Development and Transformation in Christ (1/7): Muslim Identity - To Be or Not to Be a Muslim? - Biblical Missiology​

​

This process inevitably includes identity development and transformation. This transformation is God-wrought. Some of the biblical metaphors which describe this process include: “the Potter and the clay” (Rom 9:21), “we are His workmanship” (Eph 2:10), and “from glory to glory” (2 Cor 3:18). God’s grace is the catalyst in this transformative process.​

​

Ministry to Muslims must begin with an axiomatic statement that Muslims are, in essence, no different than other human beings: sinners God loves and for whom Christ died. This does not mean that all Muslims are the same or that only one type of ministry to Muslims is appropriate. It merely signifies that Muslims need to be reached and they are reachable. The ministry we are participating is indeed God’s ministry and the fruit is His fruit.​

​

Muslims begin their spiritual journey the same place as other people, “dead in their trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1). Yet, God can certainly be at work throughout this progression, even before Muslims come into a living faith and are born again by the Spirit of God. Indeed, the Holy Spirit continually convicts the world—including Muslims—of sin (Jn 16:9). He then glorifies Christ (Jn 16:14) so that Muslims will trust Him as Savior and Lord. Through the blood of Christ, they may become children of the Heavenly Father. The Christian worker may even be unaware of what is happening in the heart of his or her Muslim friend.​

​

NFBW: Is Fred Farrokh wrong because you elektra are right: that a good Muslim person need only believe in any personal god and that there is life after death just like John Adams. And If they are good men and Muslim men and women it means they are not sinners, so they’re Christian in your book?

END2210090623

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Thomas Jefferson confiding that he is a Christian in a letter to a personal friend.

“.. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other. TJ​

NFBW: Jefferson’s Christ is not the Christ of any version of Christianity before his time, during and since. Jefferson is attached in the only sense, to the separable ethics taught to his students by the “human” named Jesus.

That is fact.

END2210090658