Zone1 Moses prophesied about the coming of Christ (as did Malachi & others)

[irosie91]

re: NO HISTORY----I got news----there is no contemporaneous
history of the presence on the planet of the overwhelming majority
of persons who have lived thereon. As far as I know----there is only
retrospective history of the presence of
J J M joseph mary and jesus

 

[rosends]

Says another Talmud tap dancer.

Actually, what I wrote challenged his statements and approach and was not based in the talmud, but whatever.

You all deny that God has a Son.

No we don't. We have all sorts of texts which indicate God has many sons

Psalm 2:7 “You are my son, today I have begotten you.”

Great -- so you accept that King David was God's son! Also, don't forget Ex 4:22 - the entire nation of Israel is God's son. Do you want text showing that angels are also called God's sons? And Solomon?

The Messiah will be a High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek:
Psalm 110:4. The Lord has sworn and will not waiver: “You are a priest forever in the manner of Melchizedek.”

Can you show me in that psalm any mention of a messiah? Betcha can't. Are you reading from your own "oral tradition" and tapdancing?

Michah 5:1 But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah least among the clans of Judah,
From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler of Israel; whose origin is from old, from ancient times.

Great -- a ruler will come from a certain tribe and a certain clan within that tribe. No mention of king, just a ruler, and no mention of a messiah. Also, no mention of Jesus. Did you have anything that actually textually SUPPORTS your position?

He will bring a New Covenant, unlike any previous. (Jer 31:31-34)

Oof, you should read the text. Not only does 31 not mention any messiah or person through which the renewed covenant is delivered, but God speaks in the first person saying HE will create the renewed covenant, using the exact same content as the established covenant but just changing the method of delivery.

Most of you Talmudic Jews say your messiah is going to be a military/political leader, and yet you provide no actual scripture to back it up.

If you understood the word "messiah" and knew to whom it applied, you would not make this statement.

 

[rosends]

There is a reason Christians (who believe Jesus is One with God) stand in awe of this passage in Deuteronomy. Let's take a look at verses 15-18.

15A prophet like me will the LORD, your God, raise up for you from among your own kindred; that is the one to whom you shall listen.

16This is exactly what you requested of the LORD, your God, at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, “Let me not again hear the voice of the LORD, my God, nor see this great fire any more, or I will die.”

17And the LORD said to me, What they have said is good.

18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kindred, and will put my words into the mouth of the prophet; the prophet shall tell them all that I command.

The people in Moses' time could actually hear the voice of God, and told Moses if they heard it any more they would die. God told Moses, They have a point, so I'll send a prophet with my Words. The Gospel of John introduces Jesus, starting with, "In the beginning was the Word... and goes onto say: And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

Moses is known as the lawgiver and Jesus follows in his steps (Let's look at Matthew 5:17)

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."

Could there be other prophets as well? Absolutely! Even so, Jesus should not be dismissed out of hand from being a prophet foretold by Moses.

you have a few problems here -- one is that the verses also talk about a false prophet who tells the people to do things against what God has said or who says things that don't come to pass -- both of those apply to Jesus. Also, Judaism teaches (as Jesus must have) that prophecy ended 300 years before Jesus was born. So I'll stick with dismissing out of hand.

 

[Meriweather]

you have a few problems here -- one is that the verses also talk about a false prophet who tells the people to do things against what God has said or who says things that don't come to pass -- both of those apply to Jesus. Also, Judaism teaches (as Jesus must have) that prophecy ended 300 years before Jesus was born. So I'll stick with dismissing out of hand.

Understandably, the Jewish perspective is not the Christian one. Keep in mind that Jewish Canon was not made official until well after Jesus, and it was after Jesus that leaders of the Jewish religion declared Malachi the last prophet--as it was simpler to ignore Jesus by removing him from their history. This is not a criticism, simple fact and well rooted in the steadfastness of the Jewish people to worship God--and being absolutely convinced no man could be God. No changing minds on that. No worries.

 

[rosends]

Understandably, the Jewish perspective is not the Christian one. Keep in mind that Jewish Canon was not made official until well after Jesus, and it was after Jesus that leaders of the Jewish religion declared Malachi the last prophet--as it was simpler to ignore Jesus by removing him from their history. This is not a criticism, simple fact and well rooted in the steadfastness of the Jewish people to worship God--and being absolutely convinced no man could be God. No changing minds on that. No worries.

The Jewish written canon dates to before Jesus' birth, and the fact that prophecy ended at a certain point was taught well before Jesus' birth. If it is easier to deny the entire validity of the Jewish oral law in order to create another religion, then I guess that's what Christians feel needs to be done.

 

[irosie91]

The Jewish written canon dates to before Jesus' birth, and the fact that prophecy ended at a certain point was taught well before Jesus' birth. If it is easier to deny the entire validity of the Jewish oral law in order to create another religion, then I guess that's what Christians feel needs to be done.

ALL ok----but----why are there people in the world who try to cite
THE TALMUD----having never read it and why do they GLORY in
INVENTING the content of DUH TALMUD is it because the
Talmud contains the magical recipe for transforming chopped
liver into gold?

 

[Meriweather]

The Jewish written canon dates to before Jesus' birth, and the fact that prophecy ended at a certain point was taught well before Jesus' birth. If it is easier to deny the entire validity of the Jewish oral law in order to create another religion, then I guess that's what Christians feel needs to be done.

I understand the tradition, but officially... (and who knows by whom). For example, in the 1500s Protestant Christianity tossed out seven Biblical books that were in use during Jesus' time because they were not included in the official Jewish Canon (Decided (I think) in the second or third century. I'd have to look it up, but no time at the moment.

 

[Meriweather]

you have a few problems here -- one is that the verses also talk about a false prophet who tells the people to do things against what God has said or who says things that don't come to pass -- both of those apply to Jesus.

What things do you see Jesus telling the people that were against what God has said? What things haven't come to pass?

 

[rosends]

I understand the tradition, but officially... (and who knows by whom). For example, in the 1500s Protestant Christianity tossed out seven Biblical books that were in use during Jesus' time because they were not included in the official Jewish Canon (Decided (I think) in the second or third century. I'd have to look it up, but no time at the moment.

Here are some resources

Did the Men of the Great Assembly Canonize Tanach?

Many Jewish websites, (Aish, Jewish History, Ou), state that the the Men of the Great Assembly finalized the contents of Tanach in the early Second Temple Period. No source is brought to support this

judaism.stackexchange.com

 

[rosends]

What things do you see Jesus telling the people that were against what God has said? What things haven't come to pass?

off the top of my head, the 6 antitheses, and changes to the laws of dietary requirements and hand washing were changed

and there are websites dedicated to things that didn't come to pass, at least within the "generation" that he references.

There are other issues of truth ( Is it true that Jesus never lied? ) but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Meriweather]

off the top of my head, the 6 antitheses, and changes to the laws of dietary requirements and hand washing were changed

and there are websites dedicated to things that didn't come to pass, at least within the "generation" that he references.

There are other issues of truth ( Is it true that Jesus never lied? ) but that's neither here nor there.

1. Jesus was focused on moral law which is a much higher class than diet. He pointed to instances where moral law eclipses dietary law.

2. The layout of Matthew's Gospel in regards to 'this generation' is awkward. He combines Jesus' talking about the destruction of the Temple, the Day of the Lord, and even the end of the world into what Jesus said of future events. The destruction of the Temple happened during the present generation. The coming of the Holy Spirit (a day of the Lord) occurred during the present generation. As far as end times, Jesus specifically said that he did not know that...only the Father (the Creator) knew that.

3. The Internet is filled with places that maintain there was no Exodus, no Jewish Moses, Jesus lied, etc, so we most likely agree that these are neither here nor there.

Had Jesus presented himself as a prophet, speaking for God, I can picture a 25th book in the Tanakh. However, Jesus went a step beyond that, presenting himself as One with God, as I AM, and that is something those of the Jewish faith say simply cannot happen, cannot be. Totally understandable.

From the Christian perspective, the Israelites pleaded with God that they not hear his voice or see his fire--as both were so great it would be their own death. Couldn't God send a prophet to speak for him? Thus, God became man--he sent his Word in the form of a man--to speak to his people. Who are his people?

God said they were the people of Judah, who sojourned back to southern Israel. They were the people of northern Israel who had been dispersed and were no more. They were the stranger. Through Jesus and the New Testament, God is reaching all his people. Again, Christian belief.

What Christians need to understand--and haven't seemed to yet--is that Judah is still the Lion, the Chosen and greatly loved by God.

 

[rosends]

1. Jesus was focused on moral law which is a much higher class than diet. He pointed to instances where moral law eclipses dietary law.

great. Those are changes.

2. The layout of Matthew's Gospel in regards to 'this generation' is awkward. He combines Jesus' talking about the destruction of the Temple, the Day of the Lord, and even the end of the world into what Jesus said of future events. The destruction of the Temple happened during the present generation. The coming of the Holy Spirit (a day of the Lord) occurred during the present generation. As far as end times, Jesus specifically said that he did not know that...only the Father (the Creator) knew that.

the text makes claims about "this generation shall not pass" but it did. Nuff said.

 

[Meriweather]

Here are some resources

Yes, I had already read that, and more, long ago. It seemed that whether one sees the matter as officially occurring in the second or third century, or whether it been set hundreds of years before, those advocating the later date did agree that if not "official" what had been customary for centuries was now "official".

 

[Meriweather]

the text makes claims about "this generation shall not pass" but it did.

The Temple was destroyed. The Holy Spirit did come. Texts note this. The text also said only the Father knew the day and the hour of end times. Both need to be weighed for proper understanding. People who are determined to "prove" Jesus/any scripture wrong will naturally overlook any other verse that gives the broader perspective.

 

[rosends]

The Temple was destroyed. The Holy Spirit did come. Texts note this. The text also said only the Father knew the day and the hour of end times. Both need to be weighed for proper understanding. People who are determined to "prove" Jesus/any scripture wrong will naturally overlook any other verse that gives the broader perspective.

"Both need to be weighed for proper understanding." In other words, personal interpretation not based on what the text says. Fine with me.

 

[Meriweather]

"Both need to be weighed for proper understanding." In other words, personal interpretation not based on what the text says. Fine with me.

More like reading the entire text and working from all of it, not part of it.

 

[surada]

Do you think that anyone who believes Muhammad was a prophet is a fool?

Muhammad was a messenger to the people of the Arabian peninsula... telling them to save themselves, return to the God of Abraham.

 

[surada]

The Jewish written canon dates to before Jesus' birth, and the fact that prophecy ended at a certain point was taught well before Jesus' birth. If it is easier to deny the entire validity of the Jewish oral law in order to create another religion, then I guess that's what Christians feel needs to be done.

Daniel was written in 164 BC.

 

[rosends]

Daniel was written in 164 BC.

Yes, that is certainly one position on it. So what? Does that negate anything I wrote that you responded to?

 

[luiza]

Do you think Moses actually wrote the first five books... 800 years after his death???

No . They are the biggest Fake . Deliberately mistranslated.