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Mental Illness and Law Enforcement

P@triot

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
 

S.J.

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I would think a taser would be enough to deal with a screwdriver. I mean, how many cops were there, anyway? And if they knew he was crazy, they should have one guy with a taser and the guns as a backup.
 

Snouter

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This is why these "mentally ill" individuals who are an obvious threat to the public should be incarcerated. Tasers don't always work, and with a close quarters situation there is no room for error.
 

S.J.

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This is why these "mentally ill" individuals who are an obvious threat to the public should be incarcerated. Tasers don't always work, and with a close quarters situation there is no room for error.
I would agree if that had been the first time there but they knew this guy. I just think shooting him when all he had was a screwdriver was a little excessive. Not saying it won't be ruled justified but I would have favored using a taser on him and I would have had it out and ready to fire when I walked up to the door.
 

waltky

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Nasal spray for mental illness...
confused.gif

Nasal Spray Device May Help People with Mental Illness
June 02, 2016 - With new device, anxiety-reducing hormone flows more quickly into central nervous system than with other pumps, study shows
A nasal spray device with the hormone oxytocin shows promise in helping people with certain types of mental illness improve their social skills. Oxytocin has been shown to play a role in relieving anxiety and promoting feelings of contentment. Scientists at the University of Oslo hospital in Norway worked with Optinose, a Norwegian biotechnology company, to create the device. "The patient inserts it into the mouth and one nostril," explained Dr. Per Djupesland, Optinose's co-founder. "The patient takes a deep breath, closes the lips around the mouthpiece, and exhales into the device. The airflow carries the drug particles deep into the nose."

And that means oxytocin may be able to get into the central nervous system faster than with other spray pumps on the market. The device can also spray small doses of oxytocin, which is considered safer for the patient. "A lot of mental illnesses are characterized by deficits in social dysfunction, such as autism and schizophrenia," said Daniel Quintana, a research fellow at the Oslo hospital. "But there aren't any actual treatments which specifically target social dysfunction. So oxytocin has actually generated a lot of interest in its potential to treat social dysfunction."

Previous research has shown that with just a single dose of the drug, schizophrenic and autistic patients are more likely to look directly at someone during a conversation, rather than avoid the person's gaze. "Most information, when it comes to how others are thinking and feeling, is transmitted through this eye region," Quintana said, "so by improving gaze to the eye region, you improve your ability to understand how others are thinking and feeling."

The Oslo scientists asked volunteer patients to react to photos of people with happy, angry and neutral facial expressions. "In our experiment, we found that people who were administered a low dose of intranasal ocytocin rated the neutral faces as less angry, compared to when they were given the placebo spray," Quintana said. The team will continue its research by giving autistic patients a low dose of oxytocin twice a day.

Nasal Spray Device May Help People with Mental Illness
 

FA_Q2

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Nope - cant fault the officers from defending themselves when someone attacks. I understand that it would have been preferable to use non-lethal means but it is not as though this was expected or that they had any real warning that this was going to happen. I do not expect cops to walk around every second with a tazer out in case someone jumps out at them.

This is why all cops need to have mandatory body cams on at all times on duty though. I am willing to bet that there would be a lot more questions surrounding something like this without the video evidence and/or have something that can be analyzed to make improvements in their processes.
 

FA_Q2

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I do have to wounder why no emergency aid was given for the bleeding though. I would expect police to be trained in immediate trauma care for something exactly like this. They stood around for a long time after the scene was safe without assessing or treating his wounds.

That is the biggest thing that I think they should change. If I can train an 18 year old soldier fresh out of boot camp to teat a sucking chest wound in the field I certainly think it can be taught and utilized by the police in situations like these.
 

the207life

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This is why these "mentally ill" individuals who are an obvious threat to the public should be incarcerated. Tasers don't always work, and with a close quarters situation there is no room for error.
I would agree if that had been the first time there but they knew this guy. I just think shooting him when all he had was a screwdriver was a little excessive. Not saying it won't be ruled justified but I would have favored using a taser on him and I would have had it out and ready to fire when I walked up to the door.
I must of missed it but it seemed like the FD knew him not the PD but I could be wrong. It did seem like they had enough time once they initially got eyes on the screwdriver to back away and draw a taser. It seemed as though they just sat there and didn't take the individual as a real threat until he acted.
 

Rustic

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
A taser would have just pissed him off...
 

Rustic

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
A shitty ass job, the sad thing is a bunch of do-gooders think that Monday morning quarterbacking is acceptable...
 

Rustic

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
A shitty ass job, the sad thing is a bunch of do-gooders think that Monday morning quarterbacking is acceptable...
Another thing, cops are not payed for hand to hand combat with every crazy person, fucked up gang banger and wing nut... That is the whole reason for the sidearm so they don't have go home looking like they have been in a MMA fight every time things get out of control. They just don't get payed enough for a shitty job that every do-gooder is questioning there actions.
 

Manchester

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I work part time as a mental health ambulance man, I have to regularly wrestle, restrain and subdue violent mental patients, some of whom occasionally produce weapons when all I am allowed legally to use is a set of handcuffs. Anyone who thinks his sidearm is a valid response to being lunged at by a man carrying a screwdriver isn't fit to carry that sidearm. In the case of the mentally ill they are not a criminal, they are a patient in need to detaining in a hosipital. If you decide lethal force is the alternative to getting your hands dirty then you are a coward and should not be in that role in the first place. Police are meant to be tough, guys you can rely on and who can stand up to that sort of thing without coming out shooting like its the wild west.
 
OP
P@triot

P@triot

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
A taser would have just pissed him off...
I'm defending the officers on this one. I'm not sure why you're acting like I'm not. But that being said - your comment here is remarkably stupid. A taser would not have "just pissed him off". It would have immediately dropped his ass to the ground where they could have safely cuffed him.
 

Rustic

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
A taser would have just pissed him off...
I'm defending the officers on this one. I'm not sure why you're acting like I'm not. But that being said - your comment here is remarkably stupid. A taser would not have "just pissed him off". It would have immediately dropped his ass to the ground where they could have safely cuffed him.
Are you sure?
Tell that to the cops that work the sturgis motorcycle rally, they tried the taser - there is reason why they all carry real sidearms... Lol
 

Divine Wind

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
An excellent question an excellent question and post.

Yes, police officers have a right of self defense just like any other person. The problem here is the city isn't providing the equipment and training necessary to successfully neutralize the situation without harm to anyone.

Tasers are not perfect. Both electrodes need to make contact and function in order to work. People with health issues may die from the use of Tasers. People on drugs or certain medical conditions may resist them long enough to harm others.

How do Tasers work?

Bean bag guns aren't perfect either, but also add a viable option to knock a person down long enough to stun them or simply arrest them.

It comes down to training and equipment and that means funding. Funding means either raising taxes or defunding other public projects.
 
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P@triot

P@triot

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Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.


Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill
A taser would have just pissed him off...
I'm defending the officers on this one. I'm not sure why you're acting like I'm not. But that being said - your comment here is remarkably stupid. A taser would not have "just pissed him off". It would have immediately dropped his ass to the ground where they could have safely cuffed him.
Are you sure?
Tell that to the cops that work the sturgis motorcycle rally, they tried the taser - there is reason why they all carry real sidearms... Lol
Yeah....there is a reason. In case someone else is carrying a firearm - not a screwdriver.
 

the207life

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Anyone who thinks his sidearm is a valid response to being lunged at by a man carrying a screwdriver isn't fit to carry that sidearm. In the case of the mentally ill they are not a criminal, they are a patient in need to detaining in a hosipital. If you decide lethal force is the alternative to getting your hands dirty then you are a coward and should not be in that role in the first place. Police are meant to be tough, guys you can rely on and who can stand up to that sort of thing without coming out shooting like its the wild west.

First of off I want to say thank you for your service.

While I'm not trying to initiate an argument.. I want to see if I am understanding you correctly. You say that someone who thinks their sidearm is a valid response to being lunged at by a man carrying a screwdriver isn't fit to carry a sidearm. Are you saying that being stabbed by a screwdriver couldn't prove deadly? A quick google search will point you to numerous instances where it happens. Deaths caused by a stabbing occur with objects which are more blunt on a daily basis and I assume (correct me if I am wrong here) that you would know this working at an ambulance unit.

You say that the individuals are mentally ill and not criminals. While I agree with you 100% here, that distinction does not prevent death or serious bodily harm if they are stabbed. Whether they are capable of understanding the repercussions or not.. somebody is still standing there, after the dust has settled, with a screwdriver sticking out of them. I do believe that law enforcement needs to be better trained and equipped to handle circumstances such as this to prevent such tragic outcomes but a threat acted with the opportunity, capability, and intent to cause serious bodily harm or death. That law enforcement officer has all the right in the world to act with equal force to deter the threat.

With all that said, I think the officers in this instance mishandled the situation on multiple fronts. They had plenty of time to step back and asses. They could have distanced themselves from the threat yet chose not to due to lack of awareness as it pertains to the severity of the situation. If they had approached the door and the guy came sprinting out yielding the screwdriver than I would understand their decision to draw and engage but that wasn't the case.

I'm sure there are individuals here who believe it was instinctual reaction and believe that certain people have no room to talk as they have never been in the situation. While I think that can be argued in certain instances, I personally don't believe it applies here. I did not count the time, but there seemed to be a long pause after first visual on the weapon. Again, I didn't count it but it seemed to be over five seconds. If the officers cant asses a situation when given five solid seconds to determine a reaction, than they shouldn't be placed in a position where there is a possibility of one arising. Whether you are a street cop or working a kill house in the special warfare community, you train to handle threats systematically. There was nothing systematic about how they handled that situation.. it was complete chaos.
 
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Old Yeller

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Don't use 911 as your personal free in-home counseling crew. Sell some of those cars and buy help. Problem solved in this case.
 

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