Mental Illness and Law Enforcement

[P@triot]

Are you saying that being stabbed by a screwdriver couldn't prove deadly?

The thing is though - two officers wearing armor and loaded with non-lethal tools (tasers, PR-24, etc.) should be able to subdue one schizophrenic without resorting to lethal force.

 

[the207life]

Are you saying that being stabbed by a screwdriver couldn't prove deadly?

The thing is though - two officers wearing armor and loaded with non-lethal tools (tasers, PR-24, etc.) should be able to subdue one schizophrenic without resorting to lethal force.

I agree with you 100%. Yet if this guy came sprinting out of the door as soon as they knocked with the screwdriver looking to stab them, they then have the right to use equal force. A screwdriver is a deadly weapon in that situation. Do I believe that these two officers should have engaged the threat like that in this circumstance? No. I agree with you. It was clear they had both tasers and OC spray available. I also don't think its fair to act as though someone with schizophrenia can't do as much harm or more than someone without the illness.

 

[P@triot]

Are you saying that being stabbed by a screwdriver couldn't prove deadly?

The thing is though - two officers wearing armor and loaded with non-lethal tools (tasers, PR-24, etc.) should be able to subdue one schizophrenic without resorting to lethal force.

I agree with you 100%. Yet if this guy came sprinting out of the door as soon as they knocked with the screwdriver looking to stab them, they then have the right to use equal force. A screwdriver is a deadly weapon in that situation. Do I believe that these two officers should have engaged the threat like that in this circumstance? No. I agree with you. It was clear they had both tasers and OC spray available. I also don't think its fair to act as though someone with schizophrenia can't do as much harm or more than someone without the illness.

I said in my initial post that the officers were legally justified in resorting to lethal force. But I also believe it could have been resolved without resorting to lethal force.

 

[bucs90]

This is why these "mentally ill" individuals who are an obvious threat to the public should be incarcerated. Tasers don't always work, and with a close quarters situation there is no room for error.

I would agree if that had been the first time there but they knew this guy. I just think shooting him when all he had was a screwdriver was a little excessive. Not saying it won't be ruled justified but I would have favored using a taser on him and I would have had it out and ready to fire when I walked up to the door.

You don't show up to a mentally ill "please nanny my fucked up family member" call with a taser drawn. It agitates the psychos. 99% of them don't end in a fight. Pointing a taser right away agitates the psychos and will end in more fights...more shootings.

They are "law enforcement". What law were they called to enforce?

THE ANSWER IS stop showing up. Cops aren't doctors. Your mentally ill psychopathic family member needs help? Call a doctor. Cops across the nation need to start telling the caller "Sorry your son is mentally ill but we aren't doctors. Call back when he commits a crime."

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I would think a taser would be enough to deal with a screwdriver. I mean, how many cops were there, anyway? And if they knew he was crazy, they should have one guy with a taser and the guns as a backup.

Police can use tasers if they have time to evaluate the situation and make such determination. From what this video showed, this guy walked to the door, then attacked the officers in a matter of seconds.

I think the officers had to make a immediate response without even thinking--and only relying on their training. He looked to be a pretty hefty guy, and as pointed out, there are instances where tasers do not work or miss making contact. If an officer makes the wrong decision and uses his taser, it could cost him his life.

 

[P@triot]

This is why these "mentally ill" individuals who are an obvious threat to the public should be incarcerated. Tasers don't always work, and with a close quarters situation there is no room for error.

I would agree if that had been the first time there but they knew this guy. I just think shooting him when all he had was a screwdriver was a little excessive. Not saying it won't be ruled justified but I would have favored using a taser on him and I would have had it out and ready to fire when I walked up to the door.

You don't show up to a mentally ill "please nanny my fucked up family member" call with a taser drawn. It agitates the psychos. 99% of them don't end in a fight. Pointing a taser right away agitates the psychos and will end in more fights...more shootings.

They are "law enforcement". What law were they called to enforce?

THE ANSWER IS stop showing up. Cops aren't doctors. Your mentally ill psychopathic family member needs help? Call a doctor. Cops across the nation need to start telling the caller "Sorry your son is mentally ill but we aren't doctors. Call back when he commits a crime."

That doesn't make any sense. Law enforcement is called because the mentally ill individual is doing something that is illegal. They are threatening someone. They won't leave the premise. You don't call a doctor for that. You call law enforcement.

And the public needs to understand that this is going to happen sometimes. Mentally ill people pose a risk. A risk to themselves and others.

 

[P@triot]

I would think a taser would be enough to deal with a screwdriver. I mean, how many cops were there, anyway? And if they knew he was crazy, they should have one guy with a taser and the guns as a backup.

Police can use tasers if they have time to evaluate the situation and make such determination. From what this video showed, this guy walked to the door, then attacked the officers in a matter of seconds.

I think the officers had to make a immediate response without even thinking--and only relying on their training. He looked to be a pretty hefty guy, and as pointed out, there are instances where tasers do not work or miss making contact. If an officer makes the wrong decision and uses his taser, it could cost him his life.

That's kind of nonsense Ray. If you have time to draw your firearm, you have time to draw your taser. One doesn't take any longer to draw and fire than the other.

 

[the207life]

I would think a taser would be enough to deal with a screwdriver. I mean, how many cops were there, anyway? And if they knew he was crazy, they should have one guy with a taser and the guns as a backup.

Police can use tasers if they have time to evaluate the situation and make such determination. From what this video showed, this guy walked to the door, then attacked the officers in a matter of seconds.

I think the officers had to make a immediate response without even thinking--and only relying on their training. He looked to be a pretty hefty guy, and as pointed out, there are instances where tasers do not work or miss making contact. If an officer makes the wrong decision and uses his taser, it could cost him his life.

That's kind of nonsense Ray. If you have time to draw your firearm, you have time to draw your taser. One doesn't take any longer to draw and fire than the other.

I think what Ray was getting at is.. they only had time to draw. They didn't have time to assess the situation to determine what to draw. Which I believe to be very far from the truth. They had PLENTY of time.

 

[bucs90]

This is why these "mentally ill" individuals who are an obvious threat to the public should be incarcerated. Tasers don't always work, and with a close quarters situation there is no room for error.

I would agree if that had been the first time there but they knew this guy. I just think shooting him when all he had was a screwdriver was a little excessive. Not saying it won't be ruled justified but I would have favored using a taser on him and I would have had it out and ready to fire when I walked up to the door.

You don't show up to a mentally ill "please nanny my fucked up family member" call with a taser drawn. It agitates the psychos. 99% of them don't end in a fight. Pointing a taser right away agitates the psychos and will end in more fights...more shootings.

They are "law enforcement". What law were they called to enforce?

THE ANSWER IS stop showing up. Cops aren't doctors. Your mentally ill psychopathic family member needs help? Call a doctor. Cops across the nation need to start telling the caller "Sorry your son is mentally ill but we aren't doctors. Call back when he commits a crime."

That doesn't make any sense. Law enforcement is called because the mentally ill individual is doing something that is illegal. They are threatening someone. They won't leave the premise. You don't call a doctor for that. You call law enforcement.

And the public needs to understand that this is going to happen sometimes. Mentally ill people pose a risk. A risk to themselves and others.

Ok fine. Then they'll be treated as a criminal. STOP adding the mentally ill asterisk as meaning something like cops should treat this criminal different than a sane criminal.

Want the psycho arrested for assault or making threats? Fine. Call the cops.

Don't want his ass locked up? Call a doctor.

 

[bucs90]

I would think a taser would be enough to deal with a screwdriver. I mean, how many cops were there, anyway? And if they knew he was crazy, they should have one guy with a taser and the guns as a backup.

Police can use tasers if they have time to evaluate the situation and make such determination. From what this video showed, this guy walked to the door, then attacked the officers in a matter of seconds.

I think the officers had to make a immediate response without even thinking--and only relying on their training. He looked to be a pretty hefty guy, and as pointed out, there are instances where tasers do not work or miss making contact. If an officer makes the wrong decision and uses his taser, it could cost him his life.

That's kind of nonsense Ray. If you have time to draw your firearm, you have time to draw your taser. One doesn't take any longer to draw and fire than the other.

A sharp or edged object is a DEADLY WEAPON. You don't use a non-lethal tool vs a deadly weapon. Every police academy in America teaches that.

Your way will end up with a cop having a screwdriver driven through his eye socket or neck.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

That's kind of nonsense Ray. If you have time to draw your firearm, you have time to draw your taser. One doesn't take any longer to draw and fire than the other.

When somebody attacks you, you only have a fraction of a second to draw one or the other. You better make the right choice the first time. Looking at the clock on the bottom of the video, that was less than three seconds between the time the suspect lunged at officers and the shots rang out.

 

[the207life]

That's kind of nonsense Ray. If you have time to draw your firearm, you have time to draw your taser. One doesn't take any longer to draw and fire than the other.

When somebody attacks you, you only have a fraction of a second to draw one or the other. You better make the right choice the first time. Looking at the clock on the bottom of the video, that was less than three seconds between the time the suspect lunged at officers and the shots rang out.

Now count the time from the first visual of the weapon to when he lunged. Are you telling me that they didn't have time to space themselves from the threat? As someone who has spent countless hours in kill houses.. when you have the opportunity to create space between yourself and a threat, ESPECIALLY when you don't have a grasp on the situation, you do it. They did not.. even after having a visual on the threat holding a deadly weapon.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Now count the time from the first visual of the weapon to when he lunged. Are you telling me that they didn't have time to space themselves from the threat? As someone who has spent countless hours in kill houses.. when you have the opportunity to create space between yourself and a threat, ESPECIALLY when you don't have a grasp on the situation, you do it. They did not.. even after having a visual on the threat holding a deadly weapon.

They are not trained to back down. Police move forward and aggressively. Why do you suppose they scream orders instead of using a calm voice? They have to show authority otherwise instinct takes over and the suspect has the upper hand.

 

[P@triot]

Now count the time from the first visual of the weapon to when he lunged. Are you telling me that they didn't have time to space themselves from the threat? As someone who has spent countless hours in kill houses.. when you have the opportunity to create space between yourself and a threat, ESPECIALLY when you don't have a grasp on the situation, you do it. They did not.. even after having a visual on the threat holding a deadly weapon.

They are not trained to back down. Police move forward and aggressively. Why do you suppose they scream orders instead of using a calm voice? They have to show authority otherwise instinct takes over and the suspect has the upper hand.

Dude....that is incredibly ignorant. As someone who comes from a long line of law enforcement, I can tell you unequivocally right now that everyone of them is saying "what an asshole" to your comments. Police should not "move forward and aggressively". Ever. When dealing with hardened criminals, one should always exude authority. But an office should never act "aggressively" - especially with civilians (i.e. non hardened criminals) or the mentally ill.

You have no idea what you're talking about amd making it up as you go is irresponsible.

 

[anotherlife]

Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.



Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill

Mental illness that results in violence is and should be against the law, because the primary purpose of the law should be to protect individual physical security and the physical security of property.

But most mental people are not violent, and low enforcement targets them worse, because mental illness usually erodes human ties and so they are easy to pick on.

That one is the bigger problem.

And most prison inmates are mental, but putting the nonviolent mental ones together with the violent ones is the real crime of the justice system, and maybe of law enforcement too.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Dude....that is incredibly ignorant. As someone who comes from a long line of law enforcement, I can tell you unequivocally right now that everyone of them is saying "what an asshole" to your comments. Police should not "move forward and aggressively". Ever. When dealing with hardened criminals, one should always exude authority. But an office should never act "aggressively" - especially with civilians (i.e. non hardened criminals) or the mentally ill.

You have no idea what you're talking about amd making it up as you go is irresponsible.

What timing. The show C.O.P.S is on all evening and I suggest you watch a few episodes to see how officers "back down" away from a suspect or subject. They never do that when presented with a threat. And if you have any law enforcement in your family, maybe you should start talking with them.

 

[FA_Q2]

This is why these "mentally ill" individuals who are an obvious threat to the public should be incarcerated. Tasers don't always work, and with a close quarters situation there is no room for error.

I would agree if that had been the first time there but they knew this guy. I just think shooting him when all he had was a screwdriver was a little excessive. Not saying it won't be ruled justified but I would have favored using a taser on him and I would have had it out and ready to fire when I walked up to the door.

You don't show up to a mentally ill "please nanny my fucked up family member" call with a taser drawn. It agitates the psychos. 99% of them don't end in a fight. Pointing a taser right away agitates the psychos and will end in more fights...more shootings.

They are "law enforcement". What law were they called to enforce?

THE ANSWER IS stop showing up. Cops aren't doctors. Your mentally ill psychopathic family member needs help? Call a doctor. Cops across the nation need to start telling the caller "Sorry your son is mentally ill but we aren't doctors. Call back when he commits a crime."

That doesn't make any sense. Law enforcement is called because the mentally ill individual is doing something that is illegal. They are threatening someone. They won't leave the premise. You don't call a doctor for that. You call law enforcement.

And the public needs to understand that this is going to happen sometimes. Mentally ill people pose a risk. A risk to themselves and others.

Very true. Sometimes bad things happen and there is little that could have been done. As long as people are doing police work they are going to make errors in judgment and/or take measures that end in outcomes that are not ideal.

 

[P@triot]

Dude....that is incredibly ignorant. As someone who comes from a long line of law enforcement, I can tell you unequivocally right now that everyone of them is saying "what an asshole" to your comments. Police should not "move forward and aggressively". Ever. When dealing with hardened criminals, one should always exude authority. But an office should never act "aggressively" - especially with civilians (i.e. non hardened criminals) or the mentally ill.

You have no idea what you're talking about amd making it up as you go is irresponsible.

What timing. The show C.O.P.S is on all evening and I suggest you watch a few episodes to see how officers "back down" away from a suspect or subject. They never do that when presented with a threat. And if you have any law enforcement in your family, maybe you should start talking with them.

I do. And acting "aggressive" is unprofessional, unacceptable, and guarantees escalation.

 

[P@triot]

Full disclosure before I begin: I come from an extremely long line of law enforcement. But that being said - nobody has been more critical of law enforcement recently than I have been. Many are enforcing laws that simply do not exist and that is unacceptable. However, I can't see why anyone is complaining over this fatal shooting. Law enforcement asked him nicely to drop a screwdriver (a tool which can absolutely be used as a deadly weapon) and in response this mentally ill individual lunged at the officers with intent to harm.

Obviously I understand that the schizophrenic isn't at fault considering their brain isn't functioning properly. But can anyone really blame the officers for defending themselves either? I did notice that the officers had tasers on them. Perhaps law enforcement around the nation can start training officers to have their tasers out and ready when called to a situation where they have already been notified that it involves a mentally ill individual? That's about the only thing I could see the officers doing "better" in this situation.



Shocking Video of Police Shooting Shows Why We Need to Talk About How Cops Deal With the Mentally Ill

Mental illness that results in violence is and should be against the law, because the primary purpose of the law should be to protect individual physical security and the physical security of property.

But most mental people are not violent, and low enforcement targets them worse, because mental illness usually erodes human ties and so they are easy to pick on.

That one is the bigger problem.

And most prison inmates are mental, but putting the nonviolent mental ones together with the violent ones is the real crime of the justice system, and maybe of law enforcement too.

I think the video clearly shows that the officers were not "picking on anyone". This person rushed them with a weapon and intent to harm. The question is - is there anything that can be done to create better outcomes? I would suggest that law enforcement be prepared with non-lethal tools ready when they receive a call that identifies a person of mental illness in advance.

 

[the207life]

They are not trained to back down. Police move forward and aggressively. Why do you suppose they scream orders instead of using a calm voice? They have to show authority otherwise instinct takes over and the suspect has the upper hand.

Do you mind if I ask you what training you had and where? Your statement is laughable. What you are talking about is the first level of the the force continuum. Police are actually trained to distance themselves from threats. Screaming orders is simply level one. It has nothing to do with instinct. Will you please PM me and tell me where and with whom in Cleveland you served? What you are saying is some scary shit.