Libs vs. Cons: Attempts to silence free speech

[Rinata]

Rinata.... that diaper is getting pretty rank, change it already.

Oh, grow the hell up. I know my post bothers you or you would not have responded in the usual childish manner that you Repulsives, teabagheads, and convoluted, are so famous for.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

FactCheck.org identified 26 lies pertaining to the House health care bill back in August. I think the right lies constantly. That stupid Sara Palin kept preaching about death panels when she knew it wasn't true.

Twenty-six Lies About H.R. 3200 | FactCheck.org

Actually Sara Palin was right about the "death panels" AKA Health Benefit Advisory Council but the problem was she claimed the language was in the health care bill, it wasn't. however it was in the stimulus bill.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...e-stimulus-bill-not-the-health-care-bill.html

Well actually, not in the Stimulus Bill either, but in a BOOK by Daschle and then ONLY if you let CON$ pervert the words in the book.
But hey, that's close enough for CON$ to RATIONALIZE their lies!

I gave page numbers and the language from within the bill itself. Why dont you accept the challenge and show me how my interpretation of the langauge on the stated page numbers of the stimulus bill is wrong.

Or are you just being a hack? PLEASE take me up on this challenge, I dare you.

Ok Ok so MAYBE i made the title to grab your attention but there are some changes to the health care system made by the stimulus bill as described below. This is ALREADY LAW so we cant fight to prevent it, we let them pass this already.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1eh.txt.pdf

Read the following pages 445, 454, 479. Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.

442, 446. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology (lovingly referred to by conservatives as DEATH PANEL), will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”

Pages 511, 518, 540-541. Hospitals and doctors that are not “meaningful users” of the new system will face penalties. “Meaningful user” isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose “more stringent measures of meaningful use over time”

pages 190-192. What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make.

The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research. The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and treatments.

Page 464. Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council
(Read Death Panel to many who don't trust the government)

The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit

Pages 90-92, 174-177, 181. The stimulus bill will affect every part of health care, from medical and nursing education, to how patients are treated and how much hospitals get paid. The bill allocates more funding for this bureaucracy than for the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force combined

And people wonder why I dont trust a 2000 page health care bill

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

Another one for the Libs: Attempts to marginalize the Tea Party movement.

The Tea Party marginalises itself, it doesn't need any help from the left. The RNC has done likewise. They have so many really bright true Conservatives, and they just cannot seem to get away from scraping the bottom of the barrel. It is very sad really. They used to be such straightforward trustworthy types. They are not at all like when I was a kid!

On the other hand there was that business about righties going to town halls and shouting down the speakers.


As for stopping free speech, I think anyone can say what they like, and then I can call them out on it if I don't like it.

On this board it is far and away the right that starts it, usually the ones who go off with the name calling first, then play the victim over it.....

I originally came to other message boards trying to be nice and all that, the third time I got called a name by some rude cracker the fight was ON and it's a no quarter no prisoners action from then on. Which is ok, because I know if any of that lot liked me I'd have morphed into something really ugly...

edited for clarity...

 

[edthecynic]

Actually Sara Palin was right about the "death panels" AKA Health Benefit Advisory Council but the problem was she claimed the language was in the health care bill, it wasn't. however it was in the stimulus bill.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...e-stimulus-bill-not-the-health-care-bill.html

Well actually, not in the Stimulus Bill either, but in a BOOK by Daschle and then ONLY if you let CON$ pervert the words in the book.
But hey, that's close enough for CON$ to RATIONALIZE their lies!

I gave page numbers and the language from within the bill itself. Why dont you accept the challenge and show me how my interpretation of the langauge on the stated page numbers of the stimulus bill is wrong.

Or are you just being a hack? PLEASE take me up on this challenge, I dare you.

Ok Ok so MAYBE i made the title to grab your attention but there are some changes to the health care system made by the stimulus bill as described below. This is ALREADY LAW so we cant fight to prevent it, we let them pass this already.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1eh.txt.pdf

442, 446. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology (lovingly referred to by conservatives as DEATH PANEL), will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”

And people wonder why I dont trust a 2000 page health care bill

First of all, your post is not YOUR misinterpretation of the bill, it is the totally discredited Betsy McCaughey's perversion of the bill you never even read. No wonder honest people never trust anything CON$ say.

Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan: Betsy McCaughey
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs

One word from the bill "guide" is not "language" from the bill. Obviously you never bothered to read the pages you cited yourself. SHE, not YOU, took one word from the bill and seven words from Daschle's book and everything else from her perverted imagination.

From the actual bill starting on pg 441:

‘‘Subtitle A—Promotion of Health
9 Information Technology
10 ‘‘SEC. 3001. OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COORDINATOR FOR
11 HEALTH INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY.
12 ‘‘(a) ESTABLISHMENT.—There is established within
13 the Department of Health and Human Services an Office
14 of the National Coordinator for Health Information Tech15
nology (referred to in this section as the ‘Office&#8217. The Of16
fice shall be headed by a National Coordinator who shall
17 be appointed by the Secretary and shall report directly to
18 the Secretary.
19 ‘‘(b) PURPOSE.—The National Coordinator shall per20
form the duties under subsection (c) in a manner con21
sistent with the development of a nationwide health infor22
mation technology infrastructure that allows for the elec23
tronic use and exchange of information and that

442
•HR 1 EH
1 ‘‘(1) ensures that each patient’s health informa-
2 tion is secure and protected, in accordance with ap-
3 plicable law;
4 ‘‘(2) improves health care quality, reduces med-
5 ical errors, reduces health disparities, and advances
6 the delivery of patient-centered medical care;
7 ‘‘(3) reduces health care costs resulting from
8 inefficiency, medical errors, inappropriate care, du-
9 plicative care, and incomplete information;
10 ‘‘(4) provides appropriate information to help
11 guide medical decisions at the time and place of
12 care;
13 ‘‘(5) ensures the inclusion of meaningful public
14 input in such development of such infrastructure;
15 ‘‘(6) improves the coordination of care and in-
16 formation among hospitals, laboratories, physician
17 offices, and other entities through an effective infra-
18 structure for the secure and authorized exchange of
19 health care information;
20 ‘‘(7) improves public health activities and facili-
21 tates the early identification and rapid response to
22 public health threats and emergencies, including bio-
23 terror events and infectious disease outbreaks;
24 ‘‘(8) facilitates health and clinical research and
25 health care quality

443
•HR 1 EH
1 ‘‘(9) promotes prevention of chronic diseases;
2 ‘‘(10) promotes a more effective marketplace,
3 greater competition, greater systems analysis, in-
4 creased consumer choice, and improved outcomes in
5 health care services; and
6 ‘‘(11) improves efforts to reduce health dispari-
7 ties.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

EDIT: I will continue this conversation with you in the appropriate thread Ed...lets not detract this one....follow the link above and i'll post up my response

 

[edthecynic]

I gave page numbers and the language from within the bill itself. Why dont you accept the challenge and show me how my interpretation of the langauge on the stated page numbers of the stimulus bill is wrong.

Or are you just being a hack? PLEASE take me up on this challenge, I dare you.

First of all, your post is not YOUR misinterpretation of the bill, it is the totally discredited Betsy McCaughey's perversion of the bill you never even read. No wonder honest people never trust anything CON$ say.

Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan: Betsy McCaughey
Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan: Betsy McCaughey - Bloomberg.com

One word from the bill "guide" is not "language" from the bill. Obviously you never bothered to read the pages you cited yourself. SHE, not YOU, took one word from the bill and seven words from Daschle's book and everything else from her perverted imagination.

From the actual bill starting on pg 441:

‘‘Subtitle A—Promotion of Health
9 Information Technology
10 ‘‘SEC. 3001. OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COORDINATOR FOR
11 HEALTH INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY.
12 ‘‘(a) ESTABLISHMENT.—There is established within
13 the Department of Health and Human Services an Office
14 of the National Coordinator for Health Information Tech15
nology (referred to in this section as the ‘Office&#8217. The Of16
fice shall be headed by a National Coordinator who shall
17 be appointed by the Secretary and shall report directly to
18 the Secretary.
19 ‘‘(b) PURPOSE.—The National Coordinator shall per20
form the duties under subsection (c) in a manner con21
sistent with the development of a nationwide health infor22
mation technology infrastructure that allows for the elec23
tronic use and exchange of information and that

442
•HR 1 EH
1 ‘‘(1) ensures that each patient’s health informa-
2 tion is secure and protected, in accordance with ap-
3 plicable law;
4 ‘‘(2) improves health care quality, reduces med-
5 ical errors, reduces health disparities, and advances
6 the delivery of patient-centered medical care;
7 ‘‘(3) reduces health care costs resulting from
8 inefficiency, medical errors, inappropriate care, du-
9 plicative care, and incomplete information;
10 ‘‘(4) provides appropriate information to help
11 guide medical decisions at the time and place of
12 care;
13 ‘‘(5) ensures the inclusion of meaningful public
14 input in such development of such infrastructure;
15 ‘‘(6) improves the coordination of care and in-
16 formation among hospitals, laboratories, physician
17 offices, and other entities through an effective infra-
18 structure for the secure and authorized exchange of
19 health care information;
20 ‘‘(7) improves public health activities and facili-
21 tates the early identification and rapid response to
22 public health threats and emergencies, including bio-
23 terror events and infectious disease outbreaks;
24 ‘‘(8) facilitates health and clinical research and
25 health care quality

443
•HR 1 EH
1 ‘‘(9) promotes prevention of chronic diseases;
2 ‘‘(10) promotes a more effective marketplace,
3 greater competition, greater systems analysis, in-
4 creased consumer choice, and improved outcomes in
5 health care services; and
6 ‘‘(11) improves efforts to reduce health dispari-
7 ties.

A health benefits advisory council, run by the federal government, to "provide(s) appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care"

What part of that makes you think the federal govt isn't deciding on what level of care a patient receives?

NEXT

The part BEFORE it that I underlined and you, Betsy, ignored:
"and advances the delivery of patient-centered medical care;"

Only dishonest CON$ would call increasing information to doctors and hospitals to provide, quoting from the bill, "increased consumer choice, and improved outcomes in health care services" a "death panel."

 

[Father Time]

So which side of the aisle do you think is more guilty of trying to silence opposing views, whether via legislation, boycotts, marginalization or other methods?

I'm not concerned with boycotts. It's just people choosing what they want to consume. For example if a conservative wants to boycott porn, I don't care. I always say if you don't like it don't watch it. I'm not going to complain when they choose not to watch it. There's a whole lotta stuff on the internet I don't want to see.

Anyway it's tough to choose.

 

[Father Time]

How is a boycott, a decision by people to not actively purchase the products of another party, muzzling opposing views or in any way remotely wrong or improper?
...

Organizing with people who share your views to not give money to someone whose views you disagree with is exercising free speech and basic choice, not silencing anyone else's.

I'm not saying there is anything necessarily wrong or improper with it, but when somebody pays a financial price for expressing their opinion, they (and others) will think twice before doing so again. And if you don't think it stifles the free flow of ideas and opinions you're fooling yourself.

It doesn't, the speakers are free to ignore the requests of the boycotters all they want.

 

[Father Time]

True Liberals and true Conservatives both fully support Free Speech. Socialists on the other hand?...

You can be a capitalist and still support the suppression of free speech. It would be hard to justify both beliefs but it can be done.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

I'm in favor of repealing Freedom of the Press making them vulnerable to lawsuits for printing lies and distortions. The liberal media has abused the Special Rights given to it in our Constitution.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I'm in favor of repealing Freedom of the Press making them vulnerable to lawsuits for printing lies and distortions. The liberal media has abused the Special Rights given to it in our Constitution.

An example or three would be nice.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I'm in favor of repealing Freedom of the Press making them vulnerable to lawsuits for printing lies and distortions. The liberal media has abused the Special Rights given to it in our Constitution.

They already are vulnerable to lawsuits. Libel and Slander. But it's noted that you support the government control of media.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

I'm in favor of repealing Freedom of the Press making them vulnerable to lawsuits for printing lies and distortions. The liberal media has abused the Special Rights given to it in our Constitution.

They already are vulnerable to lawsuits. Libel and Slander. But it's noted that you support the government control of media.

I never said I supported the government control the media. I wish we didn't have State Run Media here in the United States like we do now.

 

[edthecynic]

I'm in favor of repealing Freedom of the Press making them vulnerable to lawsuits for printing lies and distortions. The liberal media has abused the Special Rights given to it in our Constitution.

They already are vulnerable to lawsuits. Libel and Slander. But it's noted that you support the government control of media.

I never said I supported the government control the media. I wish we didn't have State Run Media here in the United States like we do now.

A telltale sign of a mindless DittoTard.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I'm in favor of repealing Freedom of the Press making them vulnerable to lawsuits for printing lies and distortions. The liberal media has abused the Special Rights given to it in our Constitution.

They already are vulnerable to lawsuits. Libel and Slander. But it's noted that you support the government control of media.

I never said I supported the government control the media. I wish we didn't have State Run Media here in the United States like we do now.

So your solution to the "State-Run Media" is to remove the protections that media has from the first amendment?

I'd ask you to back up your claims of "State-Run Media" - but I won't even bother. The fact that you even made the statement shows you're beyond hope.

 

[manifold]

I wish we didn't have state run media that we currently have and I'd propose replacing it with... more tightly restricted state run media.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

They already are vulnerable to lawsuits. Libel and Slander. But it's noted that you support the government control of media.

I never said I supported the government control the media. I wish we didn't have State Run Media here in the United States like we do now.

A telltale sign of a mindless DittoTard.

Maybe you want the media to side with the Government and against the People, but I don't.

 

[edthecynic]

I never said I supported the government control the media. I wish we didn't have State Run Media here in the United States like we do now.

A telltale sign of a mindless DittoTard.

Maybe you want the media to side with the Government and against the People, but I don't.

How does the fact that I recognized that you merely PARROT LimpTard indicate who or what I might want to side or not side with whom???

 

[AvgGuyIA]

They already are vulnerable to lawsuits. Libel and Slander. But it's noted that you support the government control of media.

I never said I supported the government control the media. I wish we didn't have State Run Media here in the United States like we do now.

So your solution to the "State-Run Media" is to remove the protections that media has from the first amendment?

I'd ask you to back up your claims of "State-Run Media" - but I won't even bother. The fact that you even made the statement shows you're beyond hope.

Just look at the 8 years of Bush. Nothing he did was right according to the liberal press. The lied and distorted. Look at the election of Obama; 99% favorable coverage and for McCain, 1% favorable. No wonder he won the presidency. We gave the Press the Right to print whatever it wants so it could hold our "leaders" feet to the fire. It's supposed to be the voice for the People, the watch dogs. They're lapdogs for the government. They don't deserve the protection of the 1st amendment anymore.

 

[johnrocks]

Both sides do, if it was a horse race on picking which one that does what your asking, it would be a photo finish, too close to call.