Leviticus 18-20, yes or no?

[Blues Man]

I cannot believe that in 2021 gay people and their allies are still WHINING about Christians not baking them a cake.

Gay Americans are appropriately defending themselves against discrimination in public accommodations by the bigoted, hateful Christian right; that gay Americans are still being subject to such discrimination in 2021 is reprehensible.

If gay Americans purposely go into a shop owned by a Christian, when other shops are available, they are being whining babies. Full stop.

And how is anyone to know if the owners of a store are Christian or not?

Gays have been hounding the owner of that bakery in Colorado for years now. Out of spite. Jerk moves out of jerk people.

You said people should not go to stores with Christian owners how is anyone supposed to know if the owners of a store are Christian until after they illustrate their bigotry?

And I have no doubt that Christians would sue any store owner who refused them service because they were Christian

Just another example of religious hypocrisy

I don't think that, in America, you should be forced to create something just because you hang a sign "Open for Business" outside your window. I believe I have been clear in the past that I feel this goes all ways. I don't believe we have to be eggheads about this. There is a clear difference between a business owner who won't serve Black people, say, and a Christian business owner who won't bake cakes for gay weddings, but will bake cakes for gay PEOPLE for birthdays, retirements, etc. Or, GAY BAKERS who will serve Christian PEOPLE but won't bake a cake with verses from Leviticus on it.

I do not believe simply opening a business means you are in indentured servitude to create whatever for whomever, because they say so. That's freedom. It goes absolutely both ways. So to the gay people marching in, one after another to the Christian baker to just "make him do it", I say, take your last stand somewhere else; you're just being jerks. I would say the same to fellow Christians trying to force gay bakers to write Bible verses on a cake.

Such bull

If a shop owner hung a sign that said "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED" all you Christians would be dragging his ass to court

I don't like dealing with false equivalencies and you're smart enough to spot this one. So stop. Don't waste my time.

It's a perfectly valid example.

Tell me why would a "Christian " baker want to bake a cake for a murderer or an adulterer but not for a couple people who never hurt anyone?

I'm going to say this one more time, just one more.

If a Christian has a sign or makes known "I don't serve GAYS" that's wrong. Did I not make this clear in my last post about Blacks? Okay now I will. Just like if a gay baker has a sign that say "I don't serve CHRISTIANS".

If a murderer comes in and says I need cupcakes for a birthday party, what's the harm? How is any baker going to know? They wouldn't. If a murderer comes in and says "I want a cake that says 'I am going to kill my wife'" I hope NO ONE would make him that cake. See?

It's not the person, it's the message or the event. For everyone. And again that goes all ways.

So it's wrong to and a sign but not wrong to deny service because a person is gay?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

And it is the person. Because if a gay couple wanted a wedding cake to eat at home by themselves that bigot Christian still wouldn't bake it for them

Do not insult me or yourself with "wedding cake to eat at home by themselves"

Lots of people have weddings at home.

My wife and I did I don't have any family and my wife only has one sister.

I don't eat cake so we didn't have one.

But even that excuse that it's not the gay people it's the wedding is an insult to every reasonable person's intelligence

Then it's still a wedding cake. Point stands

And so what?

What if it was a civil service which Christian Churches don't recognize anyway?

Why would some Christian baker bake a cake for two hetero people who would not be married by the church and therefore be living in sin according to their church?

But we know that sin is OK with the baker right?

Why are you into forcing free Americans into violating their conscience just because they have an "open for business" sign on their door? I am not. Remember: I am not for ANY one. I am not for gay people who are asked by Christians to bake a cake that has Bible verses on it. Or for Blacks who are asked to bake a cake for a Klu Klux Klan event.

Opening a business in America does not rope you into indentured servitude. Period.

ETA: to be more specific to your question: it's not that a gay marriage is a worse than other sins; it's that the very event makes the sin OBVIOUS. I would hope the same baker would refuse to make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife" or even a Divorce Party Cake.

This is not so difficult.

That's such crap.

It's only the gay sin that these so called Christians care about. They don't give a shit about any other sin ans will happily make a cake for adulterers, rapists, murderers and thieves.

It's pure hypocrisy

What does a gay marriage celebrate? Isn't that obvious?

You think a Christian would make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife"? Or "Happy Divorce Party"?

Maybe you can just admit YOUR bias against Christians and be done with it

And I bet your devout sinless baker is happy to make wedding cakes for people who don't get married by a priest in a church even though that's "celebrating sin"

No it's not. It's a correction of sin. What on earth are you talking about?

Your pure as snow baker would bake a wedding cake for a hetero couple married by a JP even though the the church doesn't recognize those marriages therefore that couple is living in sin. So that would be a cake to "celebrate" sin.

What church doesn't recognize that marriage? What are you talking about?

Civil marriages because they aren't done with any mention of gods aren't seen as a sacrament by any Christian church therefore they are not valid in the eyes of the church.




It's the same thing they think about gay marriages

So you are saying that all the people who are in churches now, who are married, who were married before they were Christians....all of them had to be re-married by the Christian church if they had "civil marriages" because the church does not consider their marriages valid?

WOW. That's amazing. And to think no one has ever heard of this.

I have.

My wife was raised Catholic and we didn't get married by the church and her priest said that they don't recognize our marriage.

That's only Catholics you know. Because they consider marriage a sacrament and they want control over all of them. That's ONLY Catholics; the rest of Christendom does not consider everyone else's marriage a sin.

So other Christians don't consider marriage a sacrament?

If that's true then why is this Baker you're always talking about worried about gay marriage?

Maybe, I don't know. It's just not a big fat deal in churches that are not Catholic. Catholic churches are rather like clubs with levels and rules you have to follow to be at this level to be able to do this.

He is not willing to create the cake using his God-given talents to endorse an event that he feels is rooted in sin. In America he should have that freedom. Put another way. If you were a songwriter-for-hire, maybe you wouldn't want to write a song about how wonderful these verses in Leviticus are. According to this law you uphold, "non-discrimination", you might have to. Because you can't discriminate against religion.

So then he should not make any cakes for anyone who is a sinner which means he should not make cakes for anyone.

 

[SweetSue92]

I cannot believe that in 2021 gay people and their allies are still WHINING about Christians not baking them a cake.

Gay Americans are appropriately defending themselves against discrimination in public accommodations by the bigoted, hateful Christian right; that gay Americans are still being subject to such discrimination in 2021 is reprehensible.

If gay Americans purposely go into a shop owned by a Christian, when other shops are available, they are being whining babies. Full stop.

And how is anyone to know if the owners of a store are Christian or not?

Gays have been hounding the owner of that bakery in Colorado for years now. Out of spite. Jerk moves out of jerk people.

You said people should not go to stores with Christian owners how is anyone supposed to know if the owners of a store are Christian until after they illustrate their bigotry?

And I have no doubt that Christians would sue any store owner who refused them service because they were Christian

Just another example of religious hypocrisy

I don't think that, in America, you should be forced to create something just because you hang a sign "Open for Business" outside your window. I believe I have been clear in the past that I feel this goes all ways. I don't believe we have to be eggheads about this. There is a clear difference between a business owner who won't serve Black people, say, and a Christian business owner who won't bake cakes for gay weddings, but will bake cakes for gay PEOPLE for birthdays, retirements, etc. Or, GAY BAKERS who will serve Christian PEOPLE but won't bake a cake with verses from Leviticus on it.

I do not believe simply opening a business means you are in indentured servitude to create whatever for whomever, because they say so. That's freedom. It goes absolutely both ways. So to the gay people marching in, one after another to the Christian baker to just "make him do it", I say, take your last stand somewhere else; you're just being jerks. I would say the same to fellow Christians trying to force gay bakers to write Bible verses on a cake.

Such bull

If a shop owner hung a sign that said "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED" all you Christians would be dragging his ass to court

I don't like dealing with false equivalencies and you're smart enough to spot this one. So stop. Don't waste my time.

It's a perfectly valid example.

Tell me why would a "Christian " baker want to bake a cake for a murderer or an adulterer but not for a couple people who never hurt anyone?

I'm going to say this one more time, just one more.

If a Christian has a sign or makes known "I don't serve GAYS" that's wrong. Did I not make this clear in my last post about Blacks? Okay now I will. Just like if a gay baker has a sign that say "I don't serve CHRISTIANS".

If a murderer comes in and says I need cupcakes for a birthday party, what's the harm? How is any baker going to know? They wouldn't. If a murderer comes in and says "I want a cake that says 'I am going to kill my wife'" I hope NO ONE would make him that cake. See?

It's not the person, it's the message or the event. For everyone. And again that goes all ways.

So it's wrong to and a sign but not wrong to deny service because a person is gay?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

And it is the person. Because if a gay couple wanted a wedding cake to eat at home by themselves that bigot Christian still wouldn't bake it for them

Do not insult me or yourself with "wedding cake to eat at home by themselves"

Lots of people have weddings at home.

My wife and I did I don't have any family and my wife only has one sister.

I don't eat cake so we didn't have one.

But even that excuse that it's not the gay people it's the wedding is an insult to every reasonable person's intelligence

Then it's still a wedding cake. Point stands

And so what?

What if it was a civil service which Christian Churches don't recognize anyway?

Why would some Christian baker bake a cake for two hetero people who would not be married by the church and therefore be living in sin according to their church?

But we know that sin is OK with the baker right?

Why are you into forcing free Americans into violating their conscience just because they have an "open for business" sign on their door? I am not. Remember: I am not for ANY one. I am not for gay people who are asked by Christians to bake a cake that has Bible verses on it. Or for Blacks who are asked to bake a cake for a Klu Klux Klan event.

Opening a business in America does not rope you into indentured servitude. Period.

ETA: to be more specific to your question: it's not that a gay marriage is a worse than other sins; it's that the very event makes the sin OBVIOUS. I would hope the same baker would refuse to make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife" or even a Divorce Party Cake.

This is not so difficult.

That's such crap.

It's only the gay sin that these so called Christians care about. They don't give a shit about any other sin ans will happily make a cake for adulterers, rapists, murderers and thieves.

It's pure hypocrisy

What does a gay marriage celebrate? Isn't that obvious?

You think a Christian would make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife"? Or "Happy Divorce Party"?

Maybe you can just admit YOUR bias against Christians and be done with it

And I bet your devout sinless baker is happy to make wedding cakes for people who don't get married by a priest in a church even though that's "celebrating sin"

No it's not. It's a correction of sin. What on earth are you talking about?

Your pure as snow baker would bake a wedding cake for a hetero couple married by a JP even though the the church doesn't recognize those marriages therefore that couple is living in sin. So that would be a cake to "celebrate" sin.

What church doesn't recognize that marriage? What are you talking about?

Civil marriages because they aren't done with any mention of gods aren't seen as a sacrament by any Christian church therefore they are not valid in the eyes of the church.




It's the same thing they think about gay marriages

So you are saying that all the people who are in churches now, who are married, who were married before they were Christians....all of them had to be re-married by the Christian church if they had "civil marriages" because the church does not consider their marriages valid?

WOW. That's amazing. And to think no one has ever heard of this.

I have.

My wife was raised Catholic and we didn't get married by the church and her priest said that they don't recognize our marriage.

That's only Catholics you know. Because they consider marriage a sacrament and they want control over all of them. That's ONLY Catholics; the rest of Christendom does not consider everyone else's marriage a sin.

So other Christians don't consider marriage a sacrament?

If that's true then why is this Baker you're always talking about worried about gay marriage?

Maybe, I don't know. It's just not a big fat deal in churches that are not Catholic. Catholic churches are rather like clubs with levels and rules you have to follow to be at this level to be able to do this.

He is not willing to create the cake using his God-given talents to endorse an event that he feels is rooted in sin. In America he should have that freedom. Put another way. If you were a songwriter-for-hire, maybe you wouldn't want to write a song about how wonderful these verses in Leviticus are. According to this law you uphold, "non-discrimination", you might have to. Because you can't discriminate against religion.

So then he should not make any cakes for anyone who is a sinner which means he should not make cakes for anyone.

I believe we have gone over this. I'm going to try this just ONE more time. Just one.

EVERYONE is a sinner, including the Baker. If he did not bake cakes for sinners, he would only be left baking a cake for Jesus Christ. And there would be no way to deliver that cake.

The difference is: he will not bake cakes for events *specifically celebrating, honoring and glorifying sin*. It's not a small difference. It's a big difference. From a Christian perspective, what he does all day is bring people joy and happiness. They get cakes for birthdays, retirements, showers, graduations. Yes, people are sinful but he is helping them celebrate events that are good, worthy.

He doesn't think the gay marriages are good or worthy. Again it's not about the people, it's about the event. You don't have to agree. But I think at this point the baker would win in the Supreme Court.

By the way, if you think the baker should be FORCED to bake the cake, a songwriter for hire would be FORCED to write a Leviticus song.

 

[BS Filter]

I've pointed this out many times.

Christians don't follow all the laws of Leviticus.

They pick and choose.

The laws and rituals of the Jews were designed to keep them separate from the "others".

Why Don’t Christians Follow All the Old Testament Laws ...

https://answersingenesis.org/christianity/...

May 06, 2013 · Both sides agree on many laws because so much was reiterted, changed, or commented on in the New Testament. 7 But some things went away, such as the sacrificial stuff in Leviticus 5:5–6, which Christ fulfilled. Both of these schools of thought answer why Christians do not adhere to all the Mosaic laws. There are Christians whose theologies do ...

What specifically did Jesus say about homosexuality?

Jesus gave the law to moses.

 

[Meriweather]

Which is why the church doesn't recognize them.

So if a Christian baker is worried about making cakes for people who the church says are living in sin aka homosexuals then that same baker should refuse to make wedding cakes for people who do not get married in a religious ceremony because those people are living in sin as well

It is only a sin if for those who profess to be Catholic who do not marry in the Catholic faith and wish to continue to practice their faith.

If your point is that a baker would not ask those getting married by a Justice of the Peace, "Oh, by the way, are you Catholic?" Then again, as I have pointed out before, when I went to order the wedding cake, no one asked me any personal questions and I did not volunteer any personal information.

What is the point of entering a bakery and pouring out one's life story? Order the cake and have done with it.

 

[Meriweather]

Then why does the Catholic church tell people who marry a non Catholic in a civil ceremony not to take communion?

I married an atheist. In the Catholic Church. I said my vows before God; we signed the legal papers for the State; we were both happy.

 

[Blues Man]

I cannot believe that in 2021 gay people and their allies are still WHINING about Christians not baking them a cake.

Gay Americans are appropriately defending themselves against discrimination in public accommodations by the bigoted, hateful Christian right; that gay Americans are still being subject to such discrimination in 2021 is reprehensible.

If gay Americans purposely go into a shop owned by a Christian, when other shops are available, they are being whining babies. Full stop.

And how is anyone to know if the owners of a store are Christian or not?

Gays have been hounding the owner of that bakery in Colorado for years now. Out of spite. Jerk moves out of jerk people.

You said people should not go to stores with Christian owners how is anyone supposed to know if the owners of a store are Christian until after they illustrate their bigotry?

And I have no doubt that Christians would sue any store owner who refused them service because they were Christian

Just another example of religious hypocrisy

I don't think that, in America, you should be forced to create something just because you hang a sign "Open for Business" outside your window. I believe I have been clear in the past that I feel this goes all ways. I don't believe we have to be eggheads about this. There is a clear difference between a business owner who won't serve Black people, say, and a Christian business owner who won't bake cakes for gay weddings, but will bake cakes for gay PEOPLE for birthdays, retirements, etc. Or, GAY BAKERS who will serve Christian PEOPLE but won't bake a cake with verses from Leviticus on it.

I do not believe simply opening a business means you are in indentured servitude to create whatever for whomever, because they say so. That's freedom. It goes absolutely both ways. So to the gay people marching in, one after another to the Christian baker to just "make him do it", I say, take your last stand somewhere else; you're just being jerks. I would say the same to fellow Christians trying to force gay bakers to write Bible verses on a cake.

Such bull

If a shop owner hung a sign that said "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED" all you Christians would be dragging his ass to court

I don't like dealing with false equivalencies and you're smart enough to spot this one. So stop. Don't waste my time.

It's a perfectly valid example.

Tell me why would a "Christian " baker want to bake a cake for a murderer or an adulterer but not for a couple people who never hurt anyone?

I'm going to say this one more time, just one more.

If a Christian has a sign or makes known "I don't serve GAYS" that's wrong. Did I not make this clear in my last post about Blacks? Okay now I will. Just like if a gay baker has a sign that say "I don't serve CHRISTIANS".

If a murderer comes in and says I need cupcakes for a birthday party, what's the harm? How is any baker going to know? They wouldn't. If a murderer comes in and says "I want a cake that says 'I am going to kill my wife'" I hope NO ONE would make him that cake. See?

It's not the person, it's the message or the event. For everyone. And again that goes all ways.

So it's wrong to and a sign but not wrong to deny service because a person is gay?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

And it is the person. Because if a gay couple wanted a wedding cake to eat at home by themselves that bigot Christian still wouldn't bake it for them

Do not insult me or yourself with "wedding cake to eat at home by themselves"

Lots of people have weddings at home.

My wife and I did I don't have any family and my wife only has one sister.

I don't eat cake so we didn't have one.

But even that excuse that it's not the gay people it's the wedding is an insult to every reasonable person's intelligence

Then it's still a wedding cake. Point stands

And so what?

What if it was a civil service which Christian Churches don't recognize anyway?

Why would some Christian baker bake a cake for two hetero people who would not be married by the church and therefore be living in sin according to their church?

But we know that sin is OK with the baker right?

Why are you into forcing free Americans into violating their conscience just because they have an "open for business" sign on their door? I am not. Remember: I am not for ANY one. I am not for gay people who are asked by Christians to bake a cake that has Bible verses on it. Or for Blacks who are asked to bake a cake for a Klu Klux Klan event.

Opening a business in America does not rope you into indentured servitude. Period.

ETA: to be more specific to your question: it's not that a gay marriage is a worse than other sins; it's that the very event makes the sin OBVIOUS. I would hope the same baker would refuse to make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife" or even a Divorce Party Cake.

This is not so difficult.

That's such crap.

It's only the gay sin that these so called Christians care about. They don't give a shit about any other sin ans will happily make a cake for adulterers, rapists, murderers and thieves.

It's pure hypocrisy

What does a gay marriage celebrate? Isn't that obvious?

You think a Christian would make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife"? Or "Happy Divorce Party"?

Maybe you can just admit YOUR bias against Christians and be done with it

And I bet your devout sinless baker is happy to make wedding cakes for people who don't get married by a priest in a church even though that's "celebrating sin"

No it's not. It's a correction of sin. What on earth are you talking about?

Your pure as snow baker would bake a wedding cake for a hetero couple married by a JP even though the the church doesn't recognize those marriages therefore that couple is living in sin. So that would be a cake to "celebrate" sin.

What church doesn't recognize that marriage? What are you talking about?

Civil marriages because they aren't done with any mention of gods aren't seen as a sacrament by any Christian church therefore they are not valid in the eyes of the church.




It's the same thing they think about gay marriages

So you are saying that all the people who are in churches now, who are married, who were married before they were Christians....all of them had to be re-married by the Christian church if they had "civil marriages" because the church does not consider their marriages valid?

WOW. That's amazing. And to think no one has ever heard of this.

I have.

My wife was raised Catholic and we didn't get married by the church and her priest said that they don't recognize our marriage.

That's only Catholics you know. Because they consider marriage a sacrament and they want control over all of them. That's ONLY Catholics; the rest of Christendom does not consider everyone else's marriage a sin.

So other Christians don't consider marriage a sacrament?

If that's true then why is this Baker you're always talking about worried about gay marriage?

Maybe, I don't know. It's just not a big fat deal in churches that are not Catholic. Catholic churches are rather like clubs with levels and rules you have to follow to be at this level to be able to do this.

He is not willing to create the cake using his God-given talents to endorse an event that he feels is rooted in sin. In America he should have that freedom. Put another way. If you were a songwriter-for-hire, maybe you wouldn't want to write a song about how wonderful these verses in Leviticus are. According to this law you uphold, "non-discrimination", you might have to. Because you can't discriminate against religion.

So then he should not make any cakes for anyone who is a sinner which means he should not make cakes for anyone.

I believe we have gone over this. I'm going to try this just ONE more time. Just one.

EVERYONE is a sinner, including the Baker. If he did not bake cakes for sinners, he would only be left baking a cake for Jesus Christ. And there would be no way to deliver that cake.

The difference is: he will not bake cakes for events *specifically celebrating, honoring and glorifying sin*. It's not a small difference. It's a big difference. From a Christian perspective, what he does all day is bring people joy and happiness. They get cakes for birthdays, retirements, showers, graduations. Yes, people are sinful but he is helping them celebrate events that are good, worthy.

He doesn't think the gay marriages are good or worthy. Again it's not about the people, it's about the event. You don't have to agree. But I think at this point the baker would win in the Supreme Court.

By the way, if you think the baker should be FORCED to bake the cake, a songwriter for hire would be FORCED to write a Leviticus song.

So why is THIS particular sin the one he decides to take a stand on?

It's because the gay people are committing a worse sin than any other sinner on the planet right?

It's bigotry plain and simple

 

[Blues Man]

Then why does the Catholic church tell people who marry a non Catholic in a civil ceremony not to take communion?

I married an atheist. In the Catholic Church. I said my vows before God; we signed the legal papers for the State; we were both happy.

If she didn't take her vows before your god then you should not be taking communion according to my wife's old priest.

 

[Batcat]

Christians don't follow all the laws of Leviticus.

I thank God we are not required to.

Should We Obey Old Testament Law?

The prohibition of eating pork is a refusal to submit to God’s plan for the fulfillment of the Law in Jesus.

www.desiringgod.org

 

[Meriweather]

If she didn't take her vows before your god then you should not be taking communion according to my wife's old priest.

I am confused. I said we had a Catholic wedding. A Catholic wedding, like all any wedding, still requires the marriage to be registered by the State. Which it was.

 

[SweetSue92]

I cannot believe that in 2021 gay people and their allies are still WHINING about Christians not baking them a cake.

Gay Americans are appropriately defending themselves against discrimination in public accommodations by the bigoted, hateful Christian right; that gay Americans are still being subject to such discrimination in 2021 is reprehensible.

If gay Americans purposely go into a shop owned by a Christian, when other shops are available, they are being whining babies. Full stop.

And how is anyone to know if the owners of a store are Christian or not?

Gays have been hounding the owner of that bakery in Colorado for years now. Out of spite. Jerk moves out of jerk people.

You said people should not go to stores with Christian owners how is anyone supposed to know if the owners of a store are Christian until after they illustrate their bigotry?

And I have no doubt that Christians would sue any store owner who refused them service because they were Christian

Just another example of religious hypocrisy

I don't think that, in America, you should be forced to create something just because you hang a sign "Open for Business" outside your window. I believe I have been clear in the past that I feel this goes all ways. I don't believe we have to be eggheads about this. There is a clear difference between a business owner who won't serve Black people, say, and a Christian business owner who won't bake cakes for gay weddings, but will bake cakes for gay PEOPLE for birthdays, retirements, etc. Or, GAY BAKERS who will serve Christian PEOPLE but won't bake a cake with verses from Leviticus on it.

I do not believe simply opening a business means you are in indentured servitude to create whatever for whomever, because they say so. That's freedom. It goes absolutely both ways. So to the gay people marching in, one after another to the Christian baker to just "make him do it", I say, take your last stand somewhere else; you're just being jerks. I would say the same to fellow Christians trying to force gay bakers to write Bible verses on a cake.

Such bull

If a shop owner hung a sign that said "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED" all you Christians would be dragging his ass to court

I don't like dealing with false equivalencies and you're smart enough to spot this one. So stop. Don't waste my time.

It's a perfectly valid example.

Tell me why would a "Christian " baker want to bake a cake for a murderer or an adulterer but not for a couple people who never hurt anyone?

I'm going to say this one more time, just one more.

If a Christian has a sign or makes known "I don't serve GAYS" that's wrong. Did I not make this clear in my last post about Blacks? Okay now I will. Just like if a gay baker has a sign that say "I don't serve CHRISTIANS".

If a murderer comes in and says I need cupcakes for a birthday party, what's the harm? How is any baker going to know? They wouldn't. If a murderer comes in and says "I want a cake that says 'I am going to kill my wife'" I hope NO ONE would make him that cake. See?

It's not the person, it's the message or the event. For everyone. And again that goes all ways.

So it's wrong to and a sign but not wrong to deny service because a person is gay?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

And it is the person. Because if a gay couple wanted a wedding cake to eat at home by themselves that bigot Christian still wouldn't bake it for them

Do not insult me or yourself with "wedding cake to eat at home by themselves"

Lots of people have weddings at home.

My wife and I did I don't have any family and my wife only has one sister.

I don't eat cake so we didn't have one.

But even that excuse that it's not the gay people it's the wedding is an insult to every reasonable person's intelligence

Then it's still a wedding cake. Point stands

And so what?

What if it was a civil service which Christian Churches don't recognize anyway?

Why would some Christian baker bake a cake for two hetero people who would not be married by the church and therefore be living in sin according to their church?

But we know that sin is OK with the baker right?

Why are you into forcing free Americans into violating their conscience just because they have an "open for business" sign on their door? I am not. Remember: I am not for ANY one. I am not for gay people who are asked by Christians to bake a cake that has Bible verses on it. Or for Blacks who are asked to bake a cake for a Klu Klux Klan event.

Opening a business in America does not rope you into indentured servitude. Period.

ETA: to be more specific to your question: it's not that a gay marriage is a worse than other sins; it's that the very event makes the sin OBVIOUS. I would hope the same baker would refuse to make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife" or even a Divorce Party Cake.

This is not so difficult.

That's such crap.

It's only the gay sin that these so called Christians care about. They don't give a shit about any other sin ans will happily make a cake for adulterers, rapists, murderers and thieves.

It's pure hypocrisy

What does a gay marriage celebrate? Isn't that obvious?

You think a Christian would make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife"? Or "Happy Divorce Party"?

Maybe you can just admit YOUR bias against Christians and be done with it

And I bet your devout sinless baker is happy to make wedding cakes for people who don't get married by a priest in a church even though that's "celebrating sin"

No it's not. It's a correction of sin. What on earth are you talking about?

Your pure as snow baker would bake a wedding cake for a hetero couple married by a JP even though the the church doesn't recognize those marriages therefore that couple is living in sin. So that would be a cake to "celebrate" sin.

What church doesn't recognize that marriage? What are you talking about?

Civil marriages because they aren't done with any mention of gods aren't seen as a sacrament by any Christian church therefore they are not valid in the eyes of the church.




It's the same thing they think about gay marriages

So you are saying that all the people who are in churches now, who are married, who were married before they were Christians....all of them had to be re-married by the Christian church if they had "civil marriages" because the church does not consider their marriages valid?

WOW. That's amazing. And to think no one has ever heard of this.

I have.

My wife was raised Catholic and we didn't get married by the church and her priest said that they don't recognize our marriage.

That's only Catholics you know. Because they consider marriage a sacrament and they want control over all of them. That's ONLY Catholics; the rest of Christendom does not consider everyone else's marriage a sin.

So other Christians don't consider marriage a sacrament?

If that's true then why is this Baker you're always talking about worried about gay marriage?

Maybe, I don't know. It's just not a big fat deal in churches that are not Catholic. Catholic churches are rather like clubs with levels and rules you have to follow to be at this level to be able to do this.

He is not willing to create the cake using his God-given talents to endorse an event that he feels is rooted in sin. In America he should have that freedom. Put another way. If you were a songwriter-for-hire, maybe you wouldn't want to write a song about how wonderful these verses in Leviticus are. According to this law you uphold, "non-discrimination", you might have to. Because you can't discriminate against religion.

So then he should not make any cakes for anyone who is a sinner which means he should not make cakes for anyone.

I believe we have gone over this. I'm going to try this just ONE more time. Just one.

EVERYONE is a sinner, including the Baker. If he did not bake cakes for sinners, he would only be left baking a cake for Jesus Christ. And there would be no way to deliver that cake.

The difference is: he will not bake cakes for events *specifically celebrating, honoring and glorifying sin*. It's not a small difference. It's a big difference. From a Christian perspective, what he does all day is bring people joy and happiness. They get cakes for birthdays, retirements, showers, graduations. Yes, people are sinful but he is helping them celebrate events that are good, worthy.

He doesn't think the gay marriages are good or worthy. Again it's not about the people, it's about the event. You don't have to agree. But I think at this point the baker would win in the Supreme Court.

By the way, if you think the baker should be FORCED to bake the cake, a songwriter for hire would be FORCED to write a Leviticus song.

So why is THIS particular sin the one he decides to take a stand on?

It's because the gay people are committing a worse sin than any other sinner on the planet right?

It's bigotry plain and simple

I feel like I've been over this a million times.

Because it is MADE OBVIOUS by his profession

If someone came in and said "I want a cake that says 'I am going to kill my wife'" he wouldn't make that either.

YOU are bothered by the gay wedding cake because YOU are perseverating on it.

 

[Mac-7]

So, which is it? Are you pro-Leviticus or anti-Leviticus as a Christian?

Are you demanding that America become a theoracy?

 

[Blues Man]

If she didn't take her vows before your god then you should not be taking communion according to my wife's old priest.

I am confused. I said we had a Catholic wedding. A Catholic wedding, like all any wedding, still requires the marriage to be registered by the State. Which it was.

You said your wife is an atheist. Why would she get married in a religious ceremony?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why are you into forcing free Americans into violating their conscience just because they have an "open for business" sign on their door?

This is a lie.

Public accommodations laws with provisions for sexual orientation do not ‘force’ anyone to ‘violate’ his conscience.

Religious beliefs have never been ‘justification’ to violate or ignore just and proper laws, such as public accommodations laws.

Christian business owners accommodating gay patrons neither ‘endorses’ nor ‘facilitates’ homosexuality, it violates no Christian dogma.

Refusal to accommodate same-sex couples is nothing but fear, ignorance, bigoty, and hate hiding behind the façade of ‘religious beliefs.’

That was just it....they were offered cakes out of the case just like what they asked for but without any writing on it...
But the homosexual couple were really just activists looking to create trouble and demanded writing on the cake.

There’s nothing in Christian religious dogma that ‘condemns’ homosexuality; a Christian business owner who accommodates a same-sex couple is not ‘condoning’ homosexuality nor is he ‘violating’ Christian religious doctrine.

As Christians have noted in this very thread, the Hebrew laws, doctrine, and dogma expressed in the Old Testament do not apply to Christians.

Given this fact, the notion that Christian business owners are being ‘forced’ to ‘violate’ their religious beliefs because of public accommodations laws is a lie – it’s nothing but a dishonest façade behind which they attempt to hide and justify their fear, ignorance, bigotry, and hate.

 

[SweetSue92]

Why are you into forcing free Americans into violating their conscience just because they have an "open for business" sign on their door?

This is a lie.

Public accommodations laws with provisions for sexual orientation do not ‘force’ anyone to ‘violate’ his conscience.

Religious beliefs have never been ‘justification’ to violate or ignore just and proper laws, such as public accommodations laws.

Christian business owners accommodating gay patrons neither ‘endorses’ nor ‘facilitates’ homosexuality, it violates no Christian dogma.

Refusal to accommodate same-sex couples is nothing but fear, ignorance, bigoty, and hate hiding behind the façade of ‘religious beliefs.’

That was just it....they were offered cakes out of the case just like what they asked for but without any writing on it...
But the homosexual couple were really just activists looking to create trouble and demanded writing on the cake.

There’s nothing in Christian religious dogma that ‘condemns’ homosexuality; a Christian business owner who accommodates a same-sex couple is not ‘condoning’ homosexuality nor is he ‘violating’ Christian religious doctrine.

As Christians have noted in this very thread, the Hebrew laws, doctrine, and dogma expressed in the Old Testament do not apply to Christians.

Given this fact, the notion that Christian business owners are being ‘forced’ to ‘violate’ their religious beliefs because of public accommodations laws is a lie – it’s nothing but a dishonest façade behind which they attempt to hide and justify their fear, ignorance, bigotry, and hate.

When know when you drone on and on about fear, ignorance hate bigotry I hear the Charlie Brown teacher in my head. It's boring. It's old. Try something new. It has less than NO effect on me, it's detrimental. For you.

That's for starters.

Secondly. you're wrong. There's plenty in the NT about homosexuality, first, and marriage between one man and one woman is part of the moral law that would not have been abolished like civil and ceremonial laws. You're just plain ignorant about the entire thing, as most Christian-phobes are, to be blunt.

 

[Blues Man]

I cannot believe that in 2021 gay people and their allies are still WHINING about Christians not baking them a cake.

Gay Americans are appropriately defending themselves against discrimination in public accommodations by the bigoted, hateful Christian right; that gay Americans are still being subject to such discrimination in 2021 is reprehensible.

If gay Americans purposely go into a shop owned by a Christian, when other shops are available, they are being whining babies. Full stop.

And how is anyone to know if the owners of a store are Christian or not?

Gays have been hounding the owner of that bakery in Colorado for years now. Out of spite. Jerk moves out of jerk people.

You said people should not go to stores with Christian owners how is anyone supposed to know if the owners of a store are Christian until after they illustrate their bigotry?

And I have no doubt that Christians would sue any store owner who refused them service because they were Christian

Just another example of religious hypocrisy

I don't think that, in America, you should be forced to create something just because you hang a sign "Open for Business" outside your window. I believe I have been clear in the past that I feel this goes all ways. I don't believe we have to be eggheads about this. There is a clear difference between a business owner who won't serve Black people, say, and a Christian business owner who won't bake cakes for gay weddings, but will bake cakes for gay PEOPLE for birthdays, retirements, etc. Or, GAY BAKERS who will serve Christian PEOPLE but won't bake a cake with verses from Leviticus on it.

I do not believe simply opening a business means you are in indentured servitude to create whatever for whomever, because they say so. That's freedom. It goes absolutely both ways. So to the gay people marching in, one after another to the Christian baker to just "make him do it", I say, take your last stand somewhere else; you're just being jerks. I would say the same to fellow Christians trying to force gay bakers to write Bible verses on a cake.

Such bull

If a shop owner hung a sign that said "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED" all you Christians would be dragging his ass to court

I don't like dealing with false equivalencies and you're smart enough to spot this one. So stop. Don't waste my time.

It's a perfectly valid example.

Tell me why would a "Christian " baker want to bake a cake for a murderer or an adulterer but not for a couple people who never hurt anyone?

I'm going to say this one more time, just one more.

If a Christian has a sign or makes known "I don't serve GAYS" that's wrong. Did I not make this clear in my last post about Blacks? Okay now I will. Just like if a gay baker has a sign that say "I don't serve CHRISTIANS".

If a murderer comes in and says I need cupcakes for a birthday party, what's the harm? How is any baker going to know? They wouldn't. If a murderer comes in and says "I want a cake that says 'I am going to kill my wife'" I hope NO ONE would make him that cake. See?

It's not the person, it's the message or the event. For everyone. And again that goes all ways.

So it's wrong to and a sign but not wrong to deny service because a person is gay?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

And it is the person. Because if a gay couple wanted a wedding cake to eat at home by themselves that bigot Christian still wouldn't bake it for them

Do not insult me or yourself with "wedding cake to eat at home by themselves"

Lots of people have weddings at home.

My wife and I did I don't have any family and my wife only has one sister.

I don't eat cake so we didn't have one.

But even that excuse that it's not the gay people it's the wedding is an insult to every reasonable person's intelligence

Then it's still a wedding cake. Point stands

And so what?

What if it was a civil service which Christian Churches don't recognize anyway?

Why would some Christian baker bake a cake for two hetero people who would not be married by the church and therefore be living in sin according to their church?

But we know that sin is OK with the baker right?

Why are you into forcing free Americans into violating their conscience just because they have an "open for business" sign on their door? I am not. Remember: I am not for ANY one. I am not for gay people who are asked by Christians to bake a cake that has Bible verses on it. Or for Blacks who are asked to bake a cake for a Klu Klux Klan event.

Opening a business in America does not rope you into indentured servitude. Period.

ETA: to be more specific to your question: it's not that a gay marriage is a worse than other sins; it's that the very event makes the sin OBVIOUS. I would hope the same baker would refuse to make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife" or even a Divorce Party Cake.

This is not so difficult.

That's such crap.

It's only the gay sin that these so called Christians care about. They don't give a shit about any other sin ans will happily make a cake for adulterers, rapists, murderers and thieves.

It's pure hypocrisy

What does a gay marriage celebrate? Isn't that obvious?

You think a Christian would make a cake that says "I'm going to kill my wife"? Or "Happy Divorce Party"?

Maybe you can just admit YOUR bias against Christians and be done with it

And I bet your devout sinless baker is happy to make wedding cakes for people who don't get married by a priest in a church even though that's "celebrating sin"

No it's not. It's a correction of sin. What on earth are you talking about?

Your pure as snow baker would bake a wedding cake for a hetero couple married by a JP even though the the church doesn't recognize those marriages therefore that couple is living in sin. So that would be a cake to "celebrate" sin.

What church doesn't recognize that marriage? What are you talking about?

Civil marriages because they aren't done with any mention of gods aren't seen as a sacrament by any Christian church therefore they are not valid in the eyes of the church.




It's the same thing they think about gay marriages

So you are saying that all the people who are in churches now, who are married, who were married before they were Christians....all of them had to be re-married by the Christian church if they had "civil marriages" because the church does not consider their marriages valid?

WOW. That's amazing. And to think no one has ever heard of this.

I have.

My wife was raised Catholic and we didn't get married by the church and her priest said that they don't recognize our marriage.

That's only Catholics you know. Because they consider marriage a sacrament and they want control over all of them. That's ONLY Catholics; the rest of Christendom does not consider everyone else's marriage a sin.

So other Christians don't consider marriage a sacrament?

If that's true then why is this Baker you're always talking about worried about gay marriage?

Maybe, I don't know. It's just not a big fat deal in churches that are not Catholic. Catholic churches are rather like clubs with levels and rules you have to follow to be at this level to be able to do this.

He is not willing to create the cake using his God-given talents to endorse an event that he feels is rooted in sin. In America he should have that freedom. Put another way. If you were a songwriter-for-hire, maybe you wouldn't want to write a song about how wonderful these verses in Leviticus are. According to this law you uphold, "non-discrimination", you might have to. Because you can't discriminate against religion.

So then he should not make any cakes for anyone who is a sinner which means he should not make cakes for anyone.

I believe we have gone over this. I'm going to try this just ONE more time. Just one.

EVERYONE is a sinner, including the Baker. If he did not bake cakes for sinners, he would only be left baking a cake for Jesus Christ. And there would be no way to deliver that cake.

The difference is: he will not bake cakes for events *specifically celebrating, honoring and glorifying sin*. It's not a small difference. It's a big difference. From a Christian perspective, what he does all day is bring people joy and happiness. They get cakes for birthdays, retirements, showers, graduations. Yes, people are sinful but he is helping them celebrate events that are good, worthy.

He doesn't think the gay marriages are good or worthy. Again it's not about the people, it's about the event. You don't have to agree. But I think at this point the baker would win in the Supreme Court.

By the way, if you think the baker should be FORCED to bake the cake, a songwriter for hire would be FORCED to write a Leviticus song.

So why is THIS particular sin the one he decides to take a stand on?

It's because the gay people are committing a worse sin than any other sinner on the planet right?

It's bigotry plain and simple

I feel like I've been over this a million times.

Because it is MADE OBVIOUS by his profession

If someone came in and said "I want a cake that says 'I am going to kill my wife'" he wouldn't make that either.

YOU are bothered by the gay wedding cake because YOU are perseverating on it.

How do you know he wouldn't bake it?

Did he tell you that or are you assuming?

 

[Meriweather]

You said your wife is an atheist. Why would she get married in a religious ceremony?

I never said I had a wife. In the Catholic faith, vows are made, before God, to the spouse and witnessed by the priest and those in attendance.

My atheist husband knew his vow was to me, he meant them, and he would have spoken the same whether or not God is.

 

[ding]

Would it be better if I was a con artist who lied and said I believed in God? It just seems like my Biblical interpretations have more credibility when you act as a con artist as opposed to being honest. Any thoughts?

Does your opinion on the Bible carry more weight when you pretend you believe it than just using your brain to analyze words and being honest? Any thoughts? In any case I think the Bible says what the Bible says regardless of any external factors or personalities. Just my two cents.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

 

[presonorek]

Would it be better if I was a con artist who lied and said I believed in God? It just seems like my Biblical interpretations have more credibility when you act as a con artist as opposed to being honest. Any thoughts?

Does your opinion on the Bible carry more weight when you pretend you believe it than just using your brain to analyze words and being honest? Any thoughts? In any case I think the Bible says what the Bible says regardless of any external factors or personalities. Just my two cents.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

I’m just proving that someone’s claim that they believe the Bible is true does not make their interpretation more accurate. Anybody can lie and say they believe it to be true. It doesn’t downplay what the Bible really says. The Bible says what it says regardless of external elements. You don’t have the right to discard the Bible just because you claim to be a believer. It says what it says.

 

[ding]

Would it be better if I was a con artist who lied and said I believed in God? It just seems like my Biblical interpretations have more credibility when you act as a con artist as opposed to being honest. Any thoughts?

Does your opinion on the Bible carry more weight when you pretend you believe it than just using your brain to analyze words and being honest? Any thoughts? In any case I think the Bible says what the Bible says regardless of any external factors or personalities. Just my two cents.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

I’m just proving that someone’s claim that they believe the Bible is true does not make their interpretation more accurate. Anybody can lie and say they believe it to be true. It doesn’t downplay what the Bible really says. The Bible says what it says regardless of external elements. You don’t have the right to discard the Bible just because you claim to be a believer. It says what it says.

How do you know what you think it says is what is says?

 

[ding]