Just curious,. but when exactly did this Satan guy become part of the Christian narrative?

[SweetSue92]

Untrue.

Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 allude to the angel Lucifer's original position as a very exalted being, and likely the highest ranking of all the angels. Ezekiel 28:12-15 also states that in addition to being powerful, it's likely that Lucifer was the most beautiful of all of God's creations.

Satan rebelled against God and upon learning of Lucifer's plan, God removed him from his dignified position and cast him out of Heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17).

In addition to that, Hell has not yet been created and won't until the Second Coming of Christ. John prophesieses that in
Revelations 9, where he sees a star fall from heaven to the earth, having the key of the "bottomless pit". He opens the bottomless pit; and smoke arises out of it, like the smoke of a great furnace, which darkens the sun.

That's all in the Bible.

Satan literally means ADVERSARY----any adversary initially.

There were no adversaries before the fall of man in the Garden of Eden.

There was no Garden of Evil----------but if you believe the fable (talking snake means fable btw) the snake would have been the adversary in that story...well the snake or that evil all powerful creature smiting Adam and Eve for eating a knowledge apple.

Whenever I heard that apple story I always assumed God never intended for mankind to be 'smart'..just be equal to all the other creatures He created. But nope, had to eat that apple which enabled mankind to be on top of the pecking order. Somehow that made God mad. Said that in Sunday school once and was given a stern look and told to be quiet the rest of the day.

Sounds to me like you've made a lifelong habit of talking about what you think you "know" so loudly that you can't hear what's actually going on. Perhaps you would have heard why God was angry if you hadn't been such a prattling smartass.

God can't make a prattling ass hear something??

Sadly for you, at some point He gives up. This is all over the Bible. You want the quotes or will you not be able to hear them?

 

[alang1216]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Satan us the ego, the little voice telling you that it's ok to be and do evil

 

[SweetSue92]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

 

[alang1216]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

 

[SweetSue92]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

 

[alang1216]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

 

[SweetSue92]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

If there is no God then you are correct, all we are is molecules in motion. Then there is absolutely no sense in arguing over good and evil. There is no such thing. "Good" is whatever is my survival. "Good" is just the next meal in my stomach, or maybe, in my child's stomach. That's it.

 

[Indeependent]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

Satan is the answer to the question, how could a loving God create a world so filled with evil. Like everything else he evolved over time and was given a back story.

That is a New Testament point of view.

What is the Jewish answer to the question, how could a loving God create a world so filled with evil?

It's not evil, it's free choice.
God doesn't need a world full of robots.
There's a reason God dispersed the human race as a response to the Tower of Bavel...the world no longer has only one nation where every person will walk in lock step.
There will always be nations in conflict and that conflict consists of various shades of Godliness and Selfishness.

Earthquakes, disease, and birth defects are all part of the world God created and have nothing to do with free choice. The Mongols may choose to wage war on my village and kill everyone in it but I don't see that as an exercise of MY free will. No there is evil in this world that has nothing to do with free choice.

What’s your point of view of nature’s reaction to human selfishness?

 

[alang1216]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

Satan is the answer to the question, how could a loving God create a world so filled with evil. Like everything else he evolved over time and was given a back story.

That is a New Testament point of view.

What is the Jewish answer to the question, how could a loving God create a world so filled with evil?

It's not evil, it's free choice.
God doesn't need a world full of robots.
There's a reason God dispersed the human race as a response to the Tower of Bavel...the world no longer has only one nation where every person will walk in lock step.
There will always be nations in conflict and that conflict consists of various shades of Godliness and Selfishness.

Earthquakes, disease, and birth defects are all part of the world God created and have nothing to do with free choice. The Mongols may choose to wage war on my village and kill everyone in it but I don't see that as an exercise of MY free will. No there is evil in this world that has nothing to do with free choice.

What’s your point of view of nature’s reaction to human selfishness?

Non sequitur. Nature does not react to human selfishness.

What's your point of view on how could a loving God create a world so filled with evil that has nothing to do with free choice?

 

[rightwinger]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

Sure I have a basis
I have a moral compass just like you do

Killing innocent children is wrong
Killing puppies and kittens is wrong
Destroying all life on earth is wrong
Sending plagues is wrong

The Bible attributes those things to God not Satan

 

[rightwinger]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

If there is no God then you are correct, all we are is molecules in motion. Then there is absolutely no sense in arguing over good and evil. There is no such thing. "Good" is whatever is my survival. "Good" is just the next meal in my stomach, or maybe, in my child's stomach. That's it.

You are being condescending in assuming that only those who believe in God have values

 

[rightwinger]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

I am judging them on their actions described in the Bible

 

[SweetSue92]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

If there is no God then you are correct, all we are is molecules in motion. Then there is absolutely no sense in arguing over good and evil. There is no such thing. "Good" is whatever is my survival. "Good" is just the next meal in my stomach, or maybe, in my child's stomach. That's it.

You are being condescending in assuming that only those who believe in God have values

Wrong. You have those values--everyone does--because you are made in the image of God. From my worldview, the fact that you understand right and wrong is sensible and can be explained.

It cannot be explained from your worldview.

 

[rightwinger]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

If there is no God then you are correct, all we are is molecules in motion. Then there is absolutely no sense in arguing over good and evil. There is no such thing. "Good" is whatever is my survival. "Good" is just the next meal in my stomach, or maybe, in my child's stomach. That's it.

You are being condescending in assuming that only those who believe in God have values

Wrong. You have those values--everyone does--because you are made in the image of God. From my worldview, the fact that you understand right and wrong is sensible and can be explained.

It cannot be explained from your worldview.

You are assuming that humans cannot have values without God giving them

My values say God did some horrible things. You look the other way

 

[SweetSue92]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

If there is no God then you are correct, all we are is molecules in motion. Then there is absolutely no sense in arguing over good and evil. There is no such thing. "Good" is whatever is my survival. "Good" is just the next meal in my stomach, or maybe, in my child's stomach. That's it.

You are being condescending in assuming that only those who believe in God have values

Wrong. You have those values--everyone does--because you are made in the image of God. From my worldview, the fact that you understand right and wrong is sensible and can be explained.

It cannot be explained from your worldview.

You are assuming that humans cannot have values without God giving them

My values say God did some horrible things. You look the other way

You would not have a universal moral value, no. If you are an evolved animal, there is no universal right and wrong beyond survival of the species. That is it. That's the higher good.

 

[SweetSue92]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

If there is no God then you are correct, all we are is molecules in motion. Then there is absolutely no sense in arguing over good and evil. There is no such thing. "Good" is whatever is my survival. "Good" is just the next meal in my stomach, or maybe, in my child's stomach. That's it.

You are being condescending in assuming that only those who believe in God have values

Wrong. You have those values--everyone does--because you are made in the image of God. From my worldview, the fact that you understand right and wrong is sensible and can be explained.

It cannot be explained from your worldview.

You are assuming that humans cannot have values without God giving them

My values say God did some horrible things. You look the other way

Also by your worldview, I don't care about your values. I don't have to. You are an evolved ape.

 

[rightwinger]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

God does worse things in the Bible than Satan ever did

Imagine if Satan had created the Great Flood, killed the first born of Egypt or created plagues?

All Satan is accused of is “tempting”

Yeah, go with that.

Tell me some of the evil things Satan has done in the Bible
Just looking objectively. God does some nasty things in the Bible

This is why you're confused rightwinger. If you think God is evil but Satan is good, you start and end every day from a place of fundamental confusion

You DEFINE God as good and Satan as evil and then view their actions from that position. Rightwinger is judging their actions to define them as good or evil. That is the difference between you two.

RW has no basis from which to judge good and evil. In his worldview we are no more than "molecules in motion" at any rate.

OTOH, from my worldview, if God is the Author and Creator of life--if He is who He claims to be and knew me from eternity (and you too)--then He and He alone has the absolute right to determine the day I am born and the day I die. That is not "evil". I do not own my life; He does.

Everyone has the right and obligation to judge others by their moral compass. We do it all the time when we decide we like or don't like a person. RW has that same right and he is using his compass to judge God's actions as he would anyone's actions.

I didn't say RW does not have the RIGHT--I said he has no basis. If you don't believe in God, if you instead believe in evolution, then we are molecules in motion. You have no basis, no standing, to say God is wrong or right or Satan is wrong or right. In other words, RW is "sitting in God's lap to smack His face".

He can't do that and be consistent.

His basis is his personal moral compass, same as yours. Do you think stoning adulterers is good or evil?

We are molecules in motion, that is the reality (your molecules stop moving and you're dead), and DNA is the blueprint. You can believe God creates DNA and sets the molecules in motion or not that is your choice.

If there is no God then you are correct, all we are is molecules in motion. Then there is absolutely no sense in arguing over good and evil. There is no such thing. "Good" is whatever is my survival. "Good" is just the next meal in my stomach, or maybe, in my child's stomach. That's it.

You are being condescending in assuming that only those who believe in God have values

Wrong. You have those values--everyone does--because you are made in the image of God. From my worldview, the fact that you understand right and wrong is sensible and can be explained.

It cannot be explained from your worldview.

You are assuming that humans cannot have values without God giving them

My values say God did some horrible things. You look the other way

You would not have a universal moral value, no. If you are an evolved animal, there is no universal right and wrong beyond survival of the species. That is it. That's the higher good.

 

[rightwinger]

If God gave me those moral values, why do I hold God to those same values?

If the Bible is true and not the work of man, then God does not have moral values

Why not just admit the Bible is a work of fiction?

 

[Likkmee]

'Satan' is only mentioned about 19 times in the Old Testament and only once in the New Testament. No where in those bibles is he referred to as the ruler of a place called hell or that he was once an angel but was cast out of heaven by God. The word Satan is used more as a description of evil than an actual evil deity ruling over a place called hell. I think the idea of Satan and his realm of hell is a narrative created less than a few hundred years ago to keep people in line....Who Is Satan?

Satan is the answer to the question, how could a loving God create a world so filled with evil. Like everything else he evolved over time and was given a back story.

That is a New Testament point of view.

What is the Jewish answer to the question, how could a loving God create a world so filled with evil?

It's not evil, it's free choice.
God doesn't need a world full of robots.
There's a reason God dispersed the human race as a response to the Tower of Bavel...the world no longer has only one nation where every person will walk in lock step.
There will always be nations in conflict and that conflict consists of various shades of Godliness and Selfishness.

Earthquakes, disease, and birth defects are all part of the world God created and have nothing to do with free choice. The Mongols may choose to wage war on my village and kill everyone in it but I don't see that as an exercise of MY free will. No there is evil in this world that has nothing to do with free choice.

What’s your point of view of nature’s reaction to human selfishness?

110 in Portland today ?