Zone1 Heaven VS Hell! Where does that leave us?

[onefour1]

Thanks for the enlightenment!

I myself AM sola scriptura. As Paul wrote, the scriptures are sufficient for the man of God to be "complete".

I do believe that which is considered the canonical Christian Bible to be THE scriptures that we should follow.

At the time Paul wrote those words, the New Testament was not even compiled into the New Testament. So what exactly did Paul mean by scriptures? I believe it to be any all of the word of God written by prophets and those whom God has inspired to write his words. I too believe that the Bible is the word of God but that it is not the only word of God. I believe God can inspire living prophets today and also reveal many other truths that are yet to be for the benefit of mankind.

 

[Michigan Swampbuck]

I was lying, I'm not a Strangite, although I am strange. Former LDS though, I got out 20 years ago. Mom was raised Mormon as a kid in Utah, so she raised us in the LDS church too. My one brother still is Mormon, not me though. I won't elaborate on why I got out.

 

[Z99]

The only way to have all information is to be God, but that position can only be filled by God.

Knowing everything about someone is by no means a requirement for loving them. In fact, for everyone we love there are and will always be mysteries about them.

Many people don't follow Jesus in their lifetime and I believe that is because they have not been given all of the available information. It's hard to argue that they have "free will" when they're precluded from knowing all of the relevant information.

 

[Z99]

So what exactly did Paul mean by scriptures?

My guess is that he was referring to written words inspired by God, which would have been the Jewish Bible and the teachings of the Apostles.

The New Testament scriptures are in agreement, right?

So when Paul talks about someone teaching "another" gospel, he is referring to those who teach a different message and doctrine.

 

[onefour1]

My guess is that he was referring to written words inspired by God, which would have been the Jewish Bible and the teachings of the Apostles.

The New Testament scriptures are in agreement, right?

So when Paul talks about someone teaching "another" gospel, he is referring to those who teach a different message and doctrine.

I agree. But this does not mean that God could not have taught his gospel among others such as those in ancient America and had them also write their teachings down. If those teachings also are in agreement with other teaching such as the Bible, who is to say that God did not also give them his word. Why would it necessarily be restricted only to those who received the teachings in the Bible?

 

[onefour1]

I was lying, I'm not a Strangite, although I am strange. Former LDS though, I got out 20 years ago. Mom was raised Mormon as a kid in Utah, so she raised us in the LDS church too. My one brother still is Mormon, not me though. I won't elaborate on why I got out.

So if you were raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints then I would imagine that you were baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. I would hope that you follow the promptings of that spiritual gift that you have been given. It has led me and been a great blessing in my life.

 

[Z99]

I agree. But this does not mean that God could not have taught his gospel among others such as those in ancient America and had them also write their teachings down. If those teachings also are in agreement with other teaching such as the Bible, who is to say that God did not also give them his word. Why would it necessarily be restricted only to those who received the teachings in the Bible?

Again, Paul said the scriptures were sufficient for the man of God to be complete. Jesus and the apostles gave us all the doctrine that we need. To claim otherwise is to say that Jesus's mission was incomplete.

I watch and read all sorts of beliefs, Christian and otherwise. A lot of it is fascinating and may very well be true, but I will not build a doctrine on it. I will only base doctrine on what I can read in the Bible, although even then there are translational errors with which to contend, such as "eternal" punishment, etc.

 

[onefour1]

Again, Paul said the scriptures were sufficient for the man of God to be complete. Jesus and the apostles gave us all the doctrine that we need. To claim otherwise is to say that Jesus's mission was incomplete.

Yes but the word "scriptures" could refer to any word of God that was written down or preached by his Holy Spirit. Even if the Bible has the complete gospel, not everyone had access to the Bible and may have received duplicate teachings from God.

I watch and read all sorts of beliefs, Christian and otherwise. A lot of it is fascinating and may very well be true, but I will not build a doctrine on it. I will only base doctrine on what I can read in the Bible, although even then there are translational errors with which to contend, such as "eternal" punishment, etc.

Interesting that you should bring up "eternal punishment". In 1829 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that spoke about the meaning of the the terms, "endless punishment" and "eternal punishment":

Doctrine and Covenants 19:5-20
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

Here it states that eternal and endless punishment does not necessarily mean punishment without end but that Endless and Eternal are some of the names of God and that it simply means God's punishment and not that it is without end.

 

[Z99]

Yes but the word "scriptures" could refer to any word of God that was written down or preached by his Holy Spirit.

I believe we should surmise that Paul was referring to scriptures of the Jewish Bible, his own teachings as well as the teachings of the apostles and, of course, Jesus. Any "gospels" that teach a message that conflicts with what they taught must be disregarded.

 

[Z99]

...not everyone had access to the Bible and may have received duplicate teachings from God.

Perhaps, but the point is that IF that "Bible" teaches a different message then it must be rejected, according to Paul. He told his followers that even if an ANGEL appeared and taught a different message that the angel was to be accursed!

 

[Z99]

but it is written endless torment.

Which writing is he referring to? The original Koine Greek scriptures didn't say "endless torment".

 

[onefour1]

I believe we should surmise that Paul was referring to scriptures of the Jewish Bible, his own teachings as well as the teachings of the apostles and, of course, Jesus. Any "gospels" that teach a message that conflicts with what they taught must be disregarded.

I think he is referring to any scripture that is given by God to any and all of his children. True if it conflicts it may not be from God. But if it agrees and compliments other scripture then it could very well be the word of God.

Perhaps, but the point is that IF that "Bible" teaches a different message then it must be rejected, according to Paul. He told his followers that even if an ANGEL appeared and taught a different message that the angel was to be accursed!

Again, if it is a differing message that contradicts then yes, it is likely false. But if it is in harmony and agreement with other scripture then it is scripture as well. Yes, the the devil or one who is his follower may appear as an angel of light but there are ways of detecting false angels and not being deceived.

Which writing is he referring to? The original Koine Greek scriptures didn't say "endless torment".

He is referring to all revelation and scripture given by God. Mark 3:29 uses "eternal damnation", the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon uses the phrase "endless torment",

 

[Z99]

He is referring to all revelation and scripture given by God. Mark 3:29 uses "eternal damnation", the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon uses the phrase "endless torment"

Mark 3:29 CLNT
yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin" --

 

[The Irish Ram]

You left out the most important aspect of Heaven or Hell and how you get to either.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".
You can't work your way to heaven. No matter how good you think you have been.
A sin free record has been given to us by way of the cross. It is a gift from Jesus. Accept Christ into your life and your name is written in God's Book of Life.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I want to believe in salvation, I believed once. I am not afraid of what comes next, the void is timeless, unlike my mortal existence.

Like I believe in Satan, what fools surround me? My problem is I believe in God the creator of all things. And I am beginning to hate that guy.

Which guy? God, or Satan?

 

[Z99]

Mark 3:29 uses "eternal damnation", the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon uses the phrase "endless torment",

Mark didn't use the word "eternal" but rather faulty translators. Here is the correct translation:

Mark 3:29
Young's Literal Translation
29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'