Zone1 It's December. Non-Believers, Put Your Kvetching Here:

[Meriweather]

Do Catholics and their Protestant daughters really understand why Jews refuse to follow the bastardized and umbilical messiah you've created?

What we know is that Jews do not see Jesus' mission in the same light as do Christians.

It is understand that the Jews are looking for a human Messiah that restores earthly rule and kingship to the Jews or Israel. Since they hold belief that God would/could never take on human form, there is no possibility they will ever see Jesus as one with God. Most Christians understand and accept that.

Further, if the above is your understanding of Jesus and his mission, you have created your own bastardization of the Christian understanding of God and His Ways.

Please, quietly allow us our own celebratory worship of God, our Creator.

 

[zaangalewa]

Why don't you enjoy yourself

¿Enjoy myselve?

and stop trying to get me to celebrate a pagan holiday

?

I don't want to celebrate with Hallmark cards and crappy gifts? I just went back to work after ten years of surgeries and therapy so it can't be my god.

?

Ever tried to think about what's your real problem, Scrooge? It's for sure not Christmas nor Thanksgiving.

 

[Moonglow]

¿Enjoy myselve?



?



?

Ever tried to think about what's your real problem, Scrooge? It's for sure not Christmas nor Thanksgiving.

Why don't you worry about number one

 

[zaangalewa]

Why don't you worry about number one

I'm not worried. But what is your #1?

 

[Clyde 154]

"MERRY CHRISTMAS". Plain,simple, regardless of religious applications attached to this day, regardless of the actual date of Christ's birth..........CHRISTMAS is an American Tradition, as American as apple pie, guns, and guts. Celebrate as you wish......or reject it as you wish. "personally".........I have no faith in Christmas because Christian doctrinal truth is based upon the content of the Holy Bible......neither Christmas nor Easter is found in the Bible as a commandment from the teachings of Christ. Both holidays were established by the RCC......in the attempt to mirror certain Jewish Sabaths/Holidays. The word Christmas comes directly from the RCC's............CHRIST'S MASS....with Easter coming from a pagan tradition of celebrating the spring equinox.....as its celebrated after the first full moon after the spring equinox. Really? Where do the Xmast trees, decorations, Santa Clause, and Easter Bunny that apparently hides eggs from children come from....where is such authorized in the Bible? Its not......but both are still Traidtions that can be enjoyed by our children and families.

But......again, both are American traditions and are protected by our Bill of Rights. If either offends you......to bad, speech and expression are forms of freedom, migrate back to whatever crap hole that brought you and your guild to our shores, if you refuse to assimilate you do not deserve American Citizenship, freedom, or protection by our collective society that does respect our traditions and common laws.

People look forward to holidays.......especially our children. What type of person would deny joy to a child?

 

[SweetSue92]

I

Have no idea what that silly term means. "Kve . "

I do know you twist the scriptures to your own destruction.

You observe pagan holidays while rejecting the only Holy Days your Creator has authorized.
.In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men."

You were brought up in certain traditions. You've done all these things all your life. They are a part of you.

At some be point, you heard the Word. You believed.

You are the seed that fell on the not so fertile soil. You reached a certain point, but are comfortable with your traditions. You bought the lie that God is okay with these pagan days because you "do them to worship Him"

This is as far as you want to go when Christ said you must be willing to GIVE UP EVERYTHING to truly FOLLOW HIM. But as the younger generation says, "you do you.'

That's fine. Just don't spread your idolatry among young Christians actually searching to follow Christ. Jesus actually asks more of you than stopping here. But you worry "what will my friends and family think if I tell them I don't follow the world's holidays because I'm all in it for my Lord now?"

I have been a Christian for a long time and have seen more than one of this flavor. YOU have it right, and stand in judgment of the brethren even to judging that God rejects me because of the holidays I keep. Nevermind that there are distinct Bible verses prohibiting this among the brethren.

Pride.

This comes down your your pride.

It makes you feel superior to believe that YOU have the right path to God, and that you have found it. Not that you are a sinner, saved by grace, living by faith. But that you are better. You gave it all up, you have the superior POWER to give it up, for whatever reason you think you needed to. And that is fine, if this is what you believe. But as I am in Christ, you have no right to judge ME if I celebrate days.

You can have it, all over there, you finger-pointing and pride. I'm joyful over here. Do your thing.

 

[ding]

Luke Chapter 1-25 is about John the Baptist. John's father, Zechariah, a priest, was chosen to enter the sanctuary to burn incense. There, an angel appeared to him and said that he and his wife, Elizabeth, would have a son that they should name John.

When the angel appeared to Mary, he gave her the news that Elizabeth was in her sixth month. When Mary visited Elizabeth the baby (John) in Elizabeth's womb is recorded as leaping for joy. That visit would put John's birth before Sukkot, but not Jesus' birth.

Looks like you won that one. Of course even Stevie Wonder would have seen that coming since he couldn’t state the case for his belief in the first place.

 

[zaangalewa]

What did Jesus do for the first 30 years of his life? Lived with his parents?

As far as I know he had been a "tekton" (Greek language) like his father Josef. A tekton (=the word technician comes from) is a "carpenter" who made houses. I guess creativity and arts had been for this job as important as history and custom and logical and/or mathematical understanding and physics. But also psychology is an important part. Not to forget economy. And so on. So I would say Jesus had been an "allrounder". Normally we call him only "carpenter" because he worked first of all with his hands and the "living" material wood - but I think it was much more than only this what he did do in his "job".

 

[zaangalewa]

Do Catholics and their Protestant daughters really understand why Jews refuse to follow the bastardized and umbilical messiah you've created?

I do not understand you - but I guess I understand Jews. What you say is unimportant. For a Jew exists not any need to become a Christian and for a Christian not any need to become a Jew - because the essential Jewish rules are the same as the essential Christian rules. Jesus did not found a new religion - because of him was founded a new religion. In 'Jewish': G'd is for everyone g'd. Christian translation: God is for everyone god. This was only in the beginning a little confusing.

 

[Meriweather]

Looks like you won that one. Of course even Stevie Wonder would have seen that coming since he couldn’t state the case for his belief in the first place.

Clarifying, not winning. I was wondering if there was something in one of the Gospels, not being Jewish, I missed or did not remember correctly. Luke's Gospel matches tradition in two different ways. First, we know that Zechariah was burning incense in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement (celebrated in or around our month of September). When the angel appeared to Mary, he noted Elizabeth was six months pregnant, which would have made that Annunciation in our month of March. Nine months later, puts Jesus' birth in December.

While Luke did not set forth exact days, early Christian tradition has it that Jesus died on the same day as his conception--March 25. And this is where things became so tangled up for me, I still haven't been able to confirm the exact date as March 25. To start with, the Jewish calendar and the Roman calendar differed already. Next, the Roman calendar back then differed quite a lot from our Roman calendar of today. I have yet to find online any confirmed idea of when March 25 (modern calendar) fell during Passover, let alone what day March 25 would have shown up on the Roman calendar in early Christianity.

The point is, the winter solstice had nothing to do with setting the date of Christ's birth. Trying to link Christmas to Saturnalia also fails, because it appears Saturnalia was patterned after Christmas, which is quite alright. All of this was proven back in the 1930s to correct the "brainstorm" of the 1880s, which was simply supposition.

Also true is that celebrating the Resurrection was intended to eventually eclipse the celebration of Eostre on the Spring Equinox and new beginnings. Eostre was the pagan Goddess of fertility. It is why the Christian Resurrection Day is known as Easter. Personally, I love that connection, although some are horrified to the point they now refuse to refer to Resurrection Sunday as Easter Sunday. I like that the Resurrection is linked to both Spring Equinox and Passover because I think of it as God bringing His earthly family together (as different as we and our celebrations are).

 

[Vastator]

Saturnalia far predates Both Christianity, and Christmas.
"From as early as 217 BC there were public Saturnalia banquets. The Roman state cancelled executions and refrained from declaring war during the festival. Pagan Roman authorities tried to curtail Saturnalia; Emperor Caligula (AD 12-41) sought to restrict it to five days, with little success"
.During the reign of the Emperor Augustus (63 BC-AD 14), it was a two-day affair starting on December 17th. By the time Lucian described the festivities, it was a seven-day event. Changes to the Roman calendar moved the climax of Saturnalia to December 25th, around the time of the date of the winter solstice.

The conversion of Emperor Constantine to Christianity in AD 312 ended Roman persecution of Christians and began imperial patronage of the Christian churches. But Christianity did not become the Roman Empire’s official religion overnight. Dr David Gwynn, lecturer in ancient and late antique history at Royal Holloway, University of London, says that, alongside Christian and other pagan festivals, ‘the Saturnalia continued to be celebrated in the century afterward’.

Christmas apparently started – like Saturnalia – in Rome, and spread to the eastern Mediterranean. The earliest known reference to it commemorating the birth of Christ on December 25th is in the Roman Philocalian calendar of AD 354.

 

[Meriweather]

Saturnalia far predates Both Christianity, and Christmas.

Celebrated December 17-23. Tying it to December 25 happened later.

 

[Vastator]

Celebrated December 17-23. Tying it to December 25 happened later.

Yes many changes to this Holiday occurred. Including a change to the calendar itself.

 

[Vastator]

Another interesting tid bit; Constantines original Religion was as an adherent to the cult Sol Invictus which was monotheistic, and had its premier holiday celebration, around the same time as Saturnalia, and eventually Christmas. It can be theorized that though converted to Christianity; he wanted to maintain the primary holiday of his native religion, the festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, (‘birthday of the unconquered sun’.) Which predates even Saturnalia. Then sought to suppress Saturnalia, in an effort to reinforce the empires new Christian faith, that he found commonality with.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes many changes to this Holiday occurred. Including a change to the calendar itself.

Not to mention the age old adage of, Which way are the people going? I must find out because I am their leader.

I have already put forth how Jesus' birthday began to be celebrated, and that had nothing to do with replacing any event already in place. If I recall correctly, the Feast of the Magi celebrations in January may well have pre-dated Christmas celebrations, because the idea of celebrating birthdays came later. Again, trying to recall research from long ago, I believe the Feast of the Magi was tied to Jesus' baptism, which does seem out of place. Immersing oneself in a river in January doesn't seem like a good idea, either, even for a holy cause.

As you say, a lot going on back then, including the changes to calendars.

 

[ReinyDays]

My second wife and her friends would run around naked in the forest on the solstice ... that was pretty cool ...

 

[presonorek]

YOU think it's wrong. Our consciences are not condemned. You know what the Bible says about that right?

But go ahead, kvetch away

Practicing Pagan festivals and holidays in defiance of God is fine. Your god probably won't care that you spit into His face with pure hatred. Shoot. Your God is probably invisible.

 

[Hellbilly]

SweetSue92
Kvetching from a non believer. Have an awesome holiday.

​

 

[SweetSue92]

SweetSue92
Kvetching from a non believer. Have an awesome holiday.

​

That's not even close to kvetching. Thanks, I appreciate it.