Is it God or Nature?

[james bond]

Our visibility horizon is about 14 billion light years away. Remnants from earlier than that are in the CMBR (Cosmic Microwave Background radiation) which we know more about since the WMAP data was studied.

The 14 billion light years away is misleading. It isn't a straight line when space and time are involved and we are discussing at the speed of light or close to it speeds. For example, one example I gave was that traveling from SF to NYC at the speed of light is instantaneous vs over four hours by jet. Now if you go out into space (hypothetical), then one person on the light speeder will age far less than the person in the jet. So, which time or age is correct?

When we are traveling farther distances at the speed of light, then we have to adjust for the other factors involved. We do not know what those other factors are as we do not know what is causing the universe to expand and how it is affecting what we see. We do not know what the universe in between is made of. Thus, what we see through our telescopes is only a snapshot in time. We are not accounting for the time dilation, but assuming if we travel from where we are to the object we are looking at, then it is 14 billion light years away. I have problems with one discussing billions of years in a space time continuum.

I think the best we can do is limit the distances and then we can calculate more accurately the space and time. Then we can actually travel there even at near speed of light. Things beyond this space and distance will not be able to be calculated with what we know today. Maybe sometime in the future.

 

[BreezeWood]

Expands spherically? Can you post a link to that model? Most scientists refer to our universe as being 'flat.'

I agree that is most models - are there any 'flat' planets - the finite angle of trajectory would be itself very (exceedingly) flat just how that works at the apex i should think would eventually prove a spherical shape.

 

[ding]

Because it was created with nearly equal amounts of matter and antimatter which annihilated each other releasing tremendous amounts of energy propelling the remaining matter outward like a ripple on a pond.

How can matter and antimatter appear and interact with each other with no space and time? And there is no need to wait 14 billion years. You have no idea how long that is. None of us has. One can't do any experiments. From entropy, we know that the heavenly bodies end up destroying each other or never to be seen again. We also know that what we see isn't really billions of years old. We can't see further than 100 light years. Let's say we want to visit a planet in Alpha Centnauri and have a way to get there at light speed. We aren't goimg to plot our course based on what we see now are we?

Through a quantum tunneling event. It’s called inflation. Maybe you have heard of it.

That's one of the physicists who believed in multiverses. These lib atheist scientists make up and believe anything so their no God story can "evolve." That's what Satan's Antibible of evolution is -- a lie. No one has seen nor demonstrated things you believe in like dark energy, quantum tunneling event, and inflation. Do you believe in strings and multiverses? Do you believe that one can travel back into the past because of it? It's crazy nonsense. For example, we have demonstrated multiverses do not exist.

He can reach whatever conclusion he wants about God. Just as long as he acknowledges the laws of nature were in place before space and time.

That may be so of atheist scientist Vilenkin, but what about you? Laws of nature were not in place before space and time. Space and time had to come first as there was a void and God created the Earth into it. The laws of nature came into existence as creation days went forward.

So, do you believe in multiverses, string theory, dark energy, quantum tunneling event, and inflation? It sounds like you do if you present Vilenkin as an example. If you believe that, then it contradicts believing in the seven days of creation and God's word. Do you not believe he created the universe as he said? He was the only witness. The big bang doesn't even follow science. Stephen Hawking admitted one needed space to have a quantum particle. He wouldn't admit one needed time for these particles to move and interact, but yet he has them popping in and out of existence. We know quantum particles exist, but we have to have science describe and explain them and we do not have all the information yet. It's like entropy in that our information is increasing and one day we'll know what happened behind closed doors or with invisible particles. However, the Bible isn't a science book, so God gave us the general picture of what he did and that is sufficient. To me, your explanations lack detail and raises questions as to what you actually believe or have faith in -- God or pseudoscience? You can't have it both ways as they contradict each other. I mean that's what it sounds like you are saying.

.

Laws of nature were not in place before space and time.

you two keep singing the same song - there was no beginning nor will there ever be an ending.

planet Earth is another story -

View attachment 321931

and not one from darkness as your phony religion but the light of day from the very beginning - and the progression over time, the physiology that evolved and the diversity of life unimpeeded till the advent of humanity.

You can’t explain why the universe began to expand in your fucked up gibberish model.

You can’t explain why the universe began to expand in your fucked up gibberish model.

that was made clear to you -

no, that is how matter will recreate the compaction by weight and velocity, transforming to a condensed state that mathematically will become unable to sustain itself, a new moment of singularity ... the metaphysical forces reaming the same.

and made mention, your low i q being your obstacle not mine. certainly there can be changes to the cycle hopefully that never happens.

BB is not really the subject matter of this thread - is it God or nature -

Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

but the evolution of physiology and its spiritual content is -

at the very least the covid is following the course of a carnivorous existence the same as most Fauna and does coincide with both nature and the path adopted by humanity - is it evil, not at best a response within nature however as a response to the treachery of humanity against Garden Earth then indeed covid may well be a message from the Almighty their tolerance is at a very dangerous level against the presence of gluttonous mankind.

No. It wasn’t made clear. I made it clear and my explanation works for universes that had a beginning.

you don’t have an explanation.

 

[james bond]

Can anyone answer my question about 14 billion light years away?

Even if we can travel near the speed of light, how can we map how far that is? Some of the claims that something is billions of light years away is ridiculous. What if the sun or planet we are looking at disappears? Let's make it more reasonable like 1 light year away. Then we can map the planet and be able to travel there near light speed in a little over a year's time. However, there would be a point where we could not depend on what we saw today. Is that 10 light years? Is it 50 light years? Is it 100 light years? Due to space changing and time being dilated, we would not be able to get from here to there.

Thus, can we trust when astrophysicists say something is 14 billion light years away? They sound like they are lying.

 

[Newtonian]

Can anyone answer my question about 14 billion light years away?

Even if we can travel near the speed of light, how can we map how far that is? Some of the claims that something is billions of light years away is ridiculous. What if the sun or planet we are looking at disappears? Let's make it more reasonable like 1 light year away. Then we can map the planet and be able to travel there near light speed in a little over a year's time. However, there would be a point where we could not depend on what we saw today. Is that 10 light years? Is it 50 light years? Is it 100 light years? Due to space changing and time being dilated, we would not be able to get from here to there.

Thus, can we trust when astrophysicists say something is 14 billion light years away? They sound like they are lying.

The speed of light is 186,282 miles per second. It is considered a constant - hence c in E=Mc^2.

A light year is the distance light travels in one year: about 6 trillion miles. More exactly [from Wikipedia): 5.88 trillion miles (5.88 x 10^12 mi).

Dating the furthest galaxies is more complex - one method involves a red shift in the light spectrum for various elements producing the light. I will start with our literature on a different red shift also applicable to your question: [gravitational red shift]

The Fascinating Force of Gravity — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"In 1916 Albert Einstein put forward his general theory of relativity. His amazing discovery was that gravity not only shapes the universe but also governs the way we see and measure it. Why, gravity even affects the way time is measured!

Again, an illustration helps clarify matters. Imagine space to be like a boundless rubber sheet. Now, placing an object on this flexible mat will cause a dimple, or depression. According to Einstein’s description, the earth, the sun, and the stars are like objects on a flexible mat, causing space to curve. If you roll another object onto the rubber sheet, it will be deflected into a curved path by the depressed area around the first object.

Similarly, the earth, the planets, and the stars move along curved paths, following the natural “depressions” in space. Even a beam of light is deflected when passing near massive objects in the universe. Furthermore, Einstein’s equations predicted that light traveling against gravity would lose some of its energy, as noted by a slight shift in color toward the red end of the spectrum. Physicists call this phenomenon gravitational redshift."

More detail is here:

Mössbauer effect - Gamma-Ray Line Widths, Hyperfine Interaction, and Lattice Dynamics

Mössbauer’s discovery has had far-reaching consequences because it has made available electromagnetic radiation (gamma rays) whose frequency is more precisely defined than any other known to date and has provided a new technique for measuring the interaction of nuclei with their environment...

www.britannica.com

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"Astronomer Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) realized that a red shift in light from distant galaxies showed that our universe is expanding and thus had a beginning "

Then, too, there is quasar speed. All galaxies are believed to be rushing away from one another at fantastic speeds. But some quasars are thought to be moving away at even greater speeds. They are usually considered to be the farthest material thing from the earth, maybe even twelve billion light-years away. How are such estimates made?

On the basis of what is called “red shift.” Light appears to travel in a wave-like pattern. As it passes through a prism, longer waves produce a deep-red color; the shorter ones are bluish. The process of “red shift” maybe illustrated with a train whistle. As a train approaches you (causing the sound waves to shorten), the whistle’s pitch seems to rise. However, after passing (and as the sound waves lengthen), the pitch drops. Light waves behave in a similar way. According to the “red shift” rule, objects leaving the earth have a longer wave length and so produce an increased amount of red shift. On this basis, quasars are thought to be the most distant objects in the universe. But there is still more to the quasar mystery.

To some experts, they imply contradictions to Einstein’s theory, on which most views of the universe are based. His theory says that nothing in the universe can travel faster than the speed of light. Yet some scientists claim to have found that parts of one quasar are traveling away from each other at ten times the speed of light!

Rather than say that Einstein is wrong, many now argue that it is the red-shift rule that is in error. One argument says that quasars are really closer than they appear and that their red shift results from ‘spectral tricks.’ Another claims that the weight of quasar material has changed through millions of years, giving a misleading red-shift impression. Nevertheless, a few astronomers are willing to accept the possibility that Einstein’s theory, if not wrong, is incomplete."

More detail here:

Quasar - Active Galactic Nuclei, Accretion Disks, and Black Hole Accretion

Although the first quasars known were discovered as radio sources, it was quickly realized that quasars could be found more efficiently by looking for objects bluer than normal stars. This can be done with relatively high efficiency by photographing large areas of the sky through two or three...

www.britannica.com

Excerpt:

" The combination of high luminosities and small sizes was sufficiently unpalatable to some astronomers that alternative explanations were posited that did not require the quasars to be at the large distances implied by their redshifts. These alternative interpretations have been discredited, although a few adherents remain. For most astronomers, the redshift controversy was settled definitively in the early 1980s when American astronomer Todd Boroson and Canadian American astronomer John Beverly Oke showed that the fuzzy halos surrounding some quasars are actually starlight from the galaxy hosting the quasar and that these galaxies are at high redshifts."

Quasars shine a new light on cosmic distances – Physics World

New method correlates redshift of different quasars

physicsworld.com

The whole 2012 article is of interest - here is a portion:

"Astronomers are always keen to find new and accurate methods to measure cosmic distances and the expansion of the universe. “Standard candles” such as Cephids and supernovae have played important roles in astronomy. Indeed, the discovery of the accelerating expansion of the universe through observations of distant supernovae won Saul Perlmutter, Adam Riess and Brian Schmidt the 2011 Nobel Prize for Physics. But using supernovae to gauge the extreme distances of the universe has its problems – the furthest known supernova is at a redshift of about 1.7 and so reliable measurements of distances greater than that are not possible using supernovae. Also, astronomers have to wait for stars to “go supernova” and then have a short window of time to make their observations.

Contrary to that, the furthest quasar has been found at a redshift of about 7.1, and so looks much further back to the beginnings of the universe. Also, quasars are some of the brightest objects in the universe, and unlike supernovae can be studied for much longer time scales. Unfortunately, quasars emit different amounts of light in all wavelengths, and this makes it very difficult to use them to measure cosmological distances using their luminosity–distance relation. It was only last year that another team of researchers showed that it was possible to use the luminosity–radius relation of active galactic nuclei – a type of quasar – to determine their distance; using them as standard candles."

See the article for more detail.

On the lighter side a definition of standard candles:

A red standard candle is about 9 inches high and tapered from 1 inch in diameter at base to .25 inches at top - there generally are strings attached - though these are not wick - ed.

The height of a standard candle decreases in proportion to the heat and light they produce - this is called the candle effect. This decrease stops as the candle waxes cold.

 

[james bond]

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

I get some of what you are talking about, but what about mapping a trip?

We can map our trip to the moon and sun (assuming we do not burn up). However, a trip to Alpha Centauri would be trickier. It would have moved in 4.4 light years. At the rate we are traveling, then we would have to have a computer powerful enough to make the necessary adjustments so that we would reach where the galaxy would be in 4.4 light years. If we cannot accurately calculate where it will be, then we could miss it completely. Thus, one needs to be able to plot the speed,direction, pull of gravity, time dilation, red shift, etc. in where Alpha Centauri is heading and we would have to plot some trajectory course in order to meet it 4.4 light years from now. If we can't map our trip, then it's moot. At some point, we won't be able to do it. So 25,000 light years would be impossible. Maybe 4.4 light years is impossible at 40% the speed of light. Thus, what we are seeing 4.4 light years away or anything we are seeing is misleading. Misleading may not be the proper scientific term, but it's not a straight line to 4.4. light years away as the graph shows. Space and time will be distorted so it would require some special kind of mapping. Traveling at even 20 - 40% the speed of light would change our trajectory. Maybe it is better to picture it as traveling as:

Scottie would have to have the computer calculate the proper coordinates for Captain Jim Kirk to arrive somewhere in Alpha Centauri accurately.

Another could be traveling at warp speed win a space ship and that would require something else which we do not know of yet.



Basically, if we can't map how far something is taking into account the various factors involved, then these light years distances are not correct.

 

[james bond]

Here's a video about warp drive. We probably won't see it in our lifetimes, but the idea or hypothesis is there:

 

[BreezeWood]

what's lacking is an atmosphere in space to allow a gradual expansion by building habitable self contained outposts along the way to any final destination - or just habitable planets that might be available for that purpose.

or more likely evolving a spirit without physiology that propels itself through space many times past the speed of light. and then regenerates their physiology after arrival.

 

[ViewFromAbove]

Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

How about, why not God?

What say you?

You first. Is God punishing us?
Me next. Why would He? I doubt that.

See? Now you went right back to "reasons".

If you flip a coin and it lands on "tails" ---- does there have to be a "reason" it did that?
Does "chance" not exist?

It depends on your philosophical view.
If you have a deterministic perspective that scientists have, then you will perceive a force or some energy behind that coin toss with a probabilistic RESULT.

 

[Pogo]

Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

How about, why not God?

What say you?

You first. Is God punishing us?
Me next. Why would He? I doubt that.

See? Now you went right back to "reasons".

If you flip a coin and it lands on "tails" ---- does there have to be a "reason" it did that?
Does "chance" not exist?

It depends on your philosophical view.
If you have a deterministic perspective that scientists have, then you will perceive a force or some energy behind that coin toss with a probabilistic RESULT.

Not necessarily, not at all.

Given the Law of Gravity, and given the shape of the coin, if I flip it into the air is it not inevitable that it must settle on either its face or its obverse?

And is not the entire concept of flipping a coin to leave a binary choice to CHANCE? If it is not chance, then I don't want my football team using it to determine who gets the ball.

 

[ViewFromAbove]

Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

I believe it has no overarching "reason." It happens, just like earthquakes and tornadoes and Dutch Elm disease. It's the perpetual balance of creation/destruction, life/death, yin and yang. That's all.

Yes, creation follows destruction, and life follows death.
One can say God is in control and/or Nature is.
If Nature is to any degree, then scientists try to offer explanations, AKA "reasons". They look at process.
OR, is God NOT in control, as deists believe? He/She does not care?

 

[ViewFromAbove]

Is this Covid-19 pandemic a result of God's actions, or an ecological/biological/sociological process that reflects Nature?

If God, then why?
If Nature, is it a "correction" in the balance of life among the human species?
Survival of the "fittest" ... and rich/powerful (access to life-saving resources)?

Perhaps population density, some foul sanitary/eating habits, and easy global travel opportunities are "correcting" overpopulation of humans?
Maybe God wants to give non-human animals a break?
What say you?

How about, why not God?

What say you?

You first. Is God punishing us?
Me next. Why would He? I doubt that.

See? Now you went right back to "reasons".

If you flip a coin and it lands on "tails" ---- does there have to be a "reason" it did that?
Does "chance" not exist?

It depends on your philosophical view.
If you have a deterministic perspective that scientists have, then you will perceive a force or some energy behind that coin toss with a probabilistic RESULT.

Not necessarily, not at all.

Given the Law of Gravity, and given the shape of the coin, if I flip it into the air is it not inevitable that it must settle on either its face or its obverse?

And is not the entire concept of flipping a coin to leave a binary choice to CHANCE? If it is not chance, then I don't want my football team using it to determine who gets the ball.

There is a force behind the coin toss, within its environment.
Otherwise, there's no coin toss, no heads or tails.

 

[ding]

RE: Is it God or Nature?
※→ ding, Meriweather, et al,

BLUF: IF the existence of the Supreme Being is assumed, THEN working with the Supreme Being is unnecessary.

How does God work within?

The better question might be how does one work with God?

(COMMENT)

Also, the other edge to the sword says, IF there is one belief system with a bone fide deity, then there may be more in the supernatual realm.

Most Respectfully,
R

Is the orderly nature of our universe an assumption?

It’s a fallacious claim. The universe is a chaotic place, not orderly at all. Black holes swallowing portions of space, collisions of galaxies, supernovae, etc. are hardly a measure of “order”.

I don’t know how anyone can study the orderly evolution of space and time from sub atomic particles to beings that know and create in ever increasing complexity and not conclude there has been an ever increasing order to the universe.

 

[Newtonian]

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

I get some of what you are talking about, but what about mapping a trip?

We can map our trip to the moon and sun (assuming we do not burn up). However, a trip to Alpha Centauri would be trickier. It would have moved in 4.4 light years. At the rate we are traveling, then we would have to have a computer powerful enough to make the necessary adjustments so that we would reach where the galaxy would be in 4.4 light years. If we cannot accurately calculate where it will be, then we could miss it completely. Thus, one needs to be able to plot the speed,direction, pull of gravity, time dilation, red shift, etc. in where Alpha Centauri is heading and we would have to plot some trajectory course in order to meet it 4.4 light years from now. If we can't map our trip, then it's moot. At some point, we won't be able to do it. So 25,000 light years would be impossible. Maybe 4.4 light years is impossible at 40% the speed of light. Thus, what we are seeing 4.4 light years away or anything we are seeing is misleading. Misleading may not be the proper scientific term, but it's not a straight line to 4.4. light years away as the graph shows. Space and time will be distorted so it would require some special kind of mapping. Traveling at even 20 - 40% the speed of light would change our trajectory. Maybe it is better to picture it as traveling as:

Scottie would have to have the computer calculate the proper coordinates for Captain Jim Kirk to arrive somewhere in Alpha Centauri accurately.

Another could be traveling at warp speed win a space ship and that would require something else which we do not know of yet.



Basically, if we can't map how far something is taking into account the various factors involved, then these light years distances are not correct.

Not to mention time! A quasar whose red shift indicates is 13 billion light years from earth also is plotting where it was 13 billion years ago - it may not even exist now - or may exist in a different form - e.g. a galaxy.

You bring up a good point - how do we date the upcoming merger of Milky Way with Andromeda?

We Finally Know When Our Milky Way Will Crash Into the Andromeda Galaxy

The Milky Way will survive in its current form a bit longer than astronomers had thought, a new study suggests.

www.space.com

"The monster collision between our Milky Way and fellow spiral galaxy Andromeda will occur about 4.5 billion years from now, according to the new research, which is based on observations made by Europe's Gaia spacecraft....

The team's models give a later-than-expected date for the Andromeda-Milky Way smashup and also suggest that it will be more of a sideswipe than a head-on collision. (Because the distances between stars are so great, the odds that our own solar system will be disrupted by the merger are very low. But the crash will definitely liven up the night sky for any creatures that are around on Earth 4.5 billion years from now.)....

By the way, Andromeda won't be the next galaxy our Milky Way slams into: The Large Magellanic Cloud and Milky Way will merge about 2.5 billion years from now, a recent study suggested."

Compare Hebrews 1:10-12 - especially the Greek word for "changed" (ἀλλαγήσονται/allagesontai/allaso/change/transform/make different).

And the word for "wrap up" - ἑλίξεις/elizeis/hilisso/roll up/to coil.

The context therefore means to "perish" as to its present form - Milky Way will be changed/transformed when it "wraps up" with other galaxies and thus will perish as to its present form - not literally go out of existence.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

How about, why not God?

Because that is a waste of time and explains nothing. Fine to say God did it, but then you still have all your work ahead of you to explain "how". So what's the use of saying God did it?

 

[Hollie]

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

I get some of what you are talking about, but what about mapping a trip?

We can map our trip to the moon and sun (assuming we do not burn up). However, a trip to Alpha Centauri would be trickier. It would have moved in 4.4 light years. At the rate we are traveling, then we would have to have a computer powerful enough to make the necessary adjustments so that we would reach where the galaxy would be in 4.4 light years. If we cannot accurately calculate where it will be, then we could miss it completely. Thus, one needs to be able to plot the speed,direction, pull of gravity, time dilation, red shift, etc. in where Alpha Centauri is heading and we would have to plot some trajectory course in order to meet it 4.4 light years from now. If we can't map our trip, then it's moot. At some point, we won't be able to do it. So 25,000 light years would be impossible. Maybe 4.4 light years is impossible at 40% the speed of light. Thus, what we are seeing 4.4 light years away or anything we are seeing is misleading. Misleading may not be the proper scientific term, but it's not a straight line to 4.4. light years away as the graph shows. Space and time will be distorted so it would require some special kind of mapping. Traveling at even 20 - 40% the speed of light would change our trajectory. Maybe it is better to picture it as traveling as:

Scottie would have to have the computer calculate the proper coordinates for Captain Jim Kirk to arrive somewhere in Alpha Centauri accurately.

Another could be traveling at warp speed win a space ship and that would require something else which we do not know of yet.



Basically, if we can't map how far something is taking into account the various factors involved, then these light years distances are not correct.

Not to mention time! A quasar whose red shift indicates is 13 billion light years from earth also is plotting where it was 13 billion years ago - it may not even exist now - or may exist in a different form - e.g. a galaxy.

You bring up a good point - how do we date the upcoming merger of Milky Way with Andromeda?

We Finally Know When Our Milky Way Will Crash Into the Andromeda Galaxy

The Milky Way will survive in its current form a bit longer than astronomers had thought, a new study suggests.

www.space.com

"The monster collision between our Milky Way and fellow spiral galaxy Andromeda will occur about 4.5 billion years from now, according to the new research, which is based on observations made by Europe's Gaia spacecraft....

The team's models give a later-than-expected date for the Andromeda-Milky Way smashup and also suggest that it will be more of a sideswipe than a head-on collision. (Because the distances between stars are so great, the odds that our own solar system will be disrupted by the merger are very low. But the crash will definitely liven up the night sky for any creatures that are around on Earth 4.5 billion years from now.)....

By the way, Andromeda won't be the next galaxy our Milky Way slams into: The Large Magellanic Cloud and Milky Way will merge about 2.5 billion years from now, a recent study suggested."

Compare Hebrews 1:10-12 - especially the Greek word for "changed" (ἀλλαγήσονται/allagesontai/allaso/change/transform/make different).

And the word for "wrap up" - ἑλίξεις/elizeis/hilisso/roll up/to coil.

The context therefore means to "perish" as to its present form - Milky Way will be changed/transformed when it "wraps up" with other galaxies and thus will perish as to its present form - not literally go out of existence.

Another example of the gawds “finely tuned” universe.

 

[ding]

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

I get some of what you are talking about, but what about mapping a trip?

We can map our trip to the moon and sun (assuming we do not burn up). However, a trip to Alpha Centauri would be trickier. It would have moved in 4.4 light years. At the rate we are traveling, then we would have to have a computer powerful enough to make the necessary adjustments so that we would reach where the galaxy would be in 4.4 light years. If we cannot accurately calculate where it will be, then we could miss it completely. Thus, one needs to be able to plot the speed,direction, pull of gravity, time dilation, red shift, etc. in where Alpha Centauri is heading and we would have to plot some trajectory course in order to meet it 4.4 light years from now. If we can't map our trip, then it's moot. At some point, we won't be able to do it. So 25,000 light years would be impossible. Maybe 4.4 light years is impossible at 40% the speed of light. Thus, what we are seeing 4.4 light years away or anything we are seeing is misleading. Misleading may not be the proper scientific term, but it's not a straight line to 4.4. light years away as the graph shows. Space and time will be distorted so it would require some special kind of mapping. Traveling at even 20 - 40% the speed of light would change our trajectory. Maybe it is better to picture it as traveling as:

Scottie would have to have the computer calculate the proper coordinates for Captain Jim Kirk to arrive somewhere in Alpha Centauri accurately.

Another could be traveling at warp speed win a space ship and that would require something else which we do not know of yet.



Basically, if we can't map how far something is taking into account the various factors involved, then these light years distances are not correct.

Not to mention time! A quasar whose red shift indicates is 13 billion light years from earth also is plotting where it was 13 billion years ago - it may not even exist now - or may exist in a different form - e.g. a galaxy.

You bring up a good point - how do we date the upcoming merger of Milky Way with Andromeda?

We Finally Know When Our Milky Way Will Crash Into the Andromeda Galaxy

The Milky Way will survive in its current form a bit longer than astronomers had thought, a new study suggests.

www.space.com

"The monster collision between our Milky Way and fellow spiral galaxy Andromeda will occur about 4.5 billion years from now, according to the new research, which is based on observations made by Europe's Gaia spacecraft....

The team's models give a later-than-expected date for the Andromeda-Milky Way smashup and also suggest that it will be more of a sideswipe than a head-on collision. (Because the distances between stars are so great, the odds that our own solar system will be disrupted by the merger are very low. But the crash will definitely liven up the night sky for any creatures that are around on Earth 4.5 billion years from now.)....

By the way, Andromeda won't be the next galaxy our Milky Way slams into: The Large Magellanic Cloud and Milky Way will merge about 2.5 billion years from now, a recent study suggested."

Compare Hebrews 1:10-12 - especially the Greek word for "changed" (ἀλλαγήσονται/allagesontai/allaso/change/transform/make different).

And the word for "wrap up" - ἑλίξεις/elizeis/hilisso/roll up/to coil.

The context therefore means to "perish" as to its present form - Milky Way will be changed/transformed when it "wraps up" with other galaxies and thus will perish as to its present form - not literally go out of existence.

Another example of the gawds “finely tuned” universe.

Rabbi Mordechai Steinman
seems to think so.

The Fine Tuning of the Universe - Aish.com

An amazing array of scientists are bewildered by the design of the universe and admit a possibility of a designer.

www.aish.com

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

I get some of what you are talking about, but what about mapping a trip?

We can map our trip to the moon and sun (assuming we do not burn up). However, a trip to Alpha Centauri would be trickier. It would have moved in 4.4 light years. At the rate we are traveling, then we would have to have a computer powerful enough to make the necessary adjustments so that we would reach where the galaxy would be in 4.4 light years. If we cannot accurately calculate where it will be, then we could miss it completely. Thus, one needs to be able to plot the speed,direction, pull of gravity, time dilation, red shift, etc. in where Alpha Centauri is heading and we would have to plot some trajectory course in order to meet it 4.4 light years from now. If we can't map our trip, then it's moot. At some point, we won't be able to do it. So 25,000 light years would be impossible. Maybe 4.4 light years is impossible at 40% the speed of light. Thus, what we are seeing 4.4 light years away or anything we are seeing is misleading. Misleading may not be the proper scientific term, but it's not a straight line to 4.4. light years away as the graph shows. Space and time will be distorted so it would require some special kind of mapping. Traveling at even 20 - 40% the speed of light would change our trajectory. Maybe it is better to picture it as traveling as:

Scottie would have to have the computer calculate the proper coordinates for Captain Jim Kirk to arrive somewhere in Alpha Centauri accurately.

Another could be traveling at warp speed win a space ship and that would require something else which we do not know of yet.



Basically, if we can't map how far something is taking into account the various factors involved, then these light years distances are not correct.

Not to mention time! A quasar whose red shift indicates is 13 billion light years from earth also is plotting where it was 13 billion years ago - it may not even exist now - or may exist in a different form - e.g. a galaxy.

You bring up a good point - how do we date the upcoming merger of Milky Way with Andromeda?

We Finally Know When Our Milky Way Will Crash Into the Andromeda Galaxy

The Milky Way will survive in its current form a bit longer than astronomers had thought, a new study suggests.

www.space.com

"The monster collision between our Milky Way and fellow spiral galaxy Andromeda will occur about 4.5 billion years from now, according to the new research, which is based on observations made by Europe's Gaia spacecraft....

The team's models give a later-than-expected date for the Andromeda-Milky Way smashup and also suggest that it will be more of a sideswipe than a head-on collision. (Because the distances between stars are so great, the odds that our own solar system will be disrupted by the merger are very low. But the crash will definitely liven up the night sky for any creatures that are around on Earth 4.5 billion years from now.)....

By the way, Andromeda won't be the next galaxy our Milky Way slams into: The Large Magellanic Cloud and Milky Way will merge about 2.5 billion years from now, a recent study suggested."

Compare Hebrews 1:10-12 - especially the Greek word for "changed" (ἀλλαγήσονται/allagesontai/allaso/change/transform/make different).

And the word for "wrap up" - ἑλίξεις/elizeis/hilisso/roll up/to coil.

The context therefore means to "perish" as to its present form - Milky Way will be changed/transformed when it "wraps up" with other galaxies and thus will perish as to its present form - not literally go out of existence.

Another example of the gawds “finely tuned” universe.

Rabbi Mordechai Steinman
seems to think so.

The Fine Tuning of the Universe - Aish.com

An amazing array of scientists are bewildered by the design of the universe and admit a possibility of a designer.

www.aish.com

So what? You can find someone with any opinion, if you look hard enough. What does he think about ice cream, or leprechauns? Just as valid.

 

[BreezeWood]

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

I get some of what you are talking about, but what about mapping a trip?

We can map our trip to the moon and sun (assuming we do not burn up). However, a trip to Alpha Centauri would be trickier. It would have moved in 4.4 light years. At the rate we are traveling, then we would have to have a computer powerful enough to make the necessary adjustments so that we would reach where the galaxy would be in 4.4 light years. If we cannot accurately calculate where it will be, then we could miss it completely. Thus, one needs to be able to plot the speed,direction, pull of gravity, time dilation, red shift, etc. in where Alpha Centauri is heading and we would have to plot some trajectory course in order to meet it 4.4 light years from now. If we can't map our trip, then it's moot. At some point, we won't be able to do it. So 25,000 light years would be impossible. Maybe 4.4 light years is impossible at 40% the speed of light. Thus, what we are seeing 4.4 light years away or anything we are seeing is misleading. Misleading may not be the proper scientific term, but it's not a straight line to 4.4. light years away as the graph shows. Space and time will be distorted so it would require some special kind of mapping. Traveling at even 20 - 40% the speed of light would change our trajectory. Maybe it is better to picture it as traveling as:

Scottie would have to have the computer calculate the proper coordinates for Captain Jim Kirk to arrive somewhere in Alpha Centauri accurately.

Another could be traveling at warp speed win a space ship and that would require something else which we do not know of yet.



Basically, if we can't map how far something is taking into account the various factors involved, then these light years distances are not correct.

Not to mention time! A quasar whose red shift indicates is 13 billion light years from earth also is plotting where it was 13 billion years ago - it may not even exist now - or may exist in a different form - e.g. a galaxy.

You bring up a good point - how do we date the upcoming merger of Milky Way with Andromeda?

We Finally Know When Our Milky Way Will Crash Into the Andromeda Galaxy

The Milky Way will survive in its current form a bit longer than astronomers had thought, a new study suggests.

www.space.com

"The monster collision between our Milky Way and fellow spiral galaxy Andromeda will occur about 4.5 billion years from now, according to the new research, which is based on observations made by Europe's Gaia spacecraft....

The team's models give a later-than-expected date for the Andromeda-Milky Way smashup and also suggest that it will be more of a sideswipe than a head-on collision. (Because the distances between stars are so great, the odds that our own solar system will be disrupted by the merger are very low. But the crash will definitely liven up the night sky for any creatures that are around on Earth 4.5 billion years from now.)....

By the way, Andromeda won't be the next galaxy our Milky Way slams into: The Large Magellanic Cloud and Milky Way will merge about 2.5 billion years from now, a recent study suggested."

Compare Hebrews 1:10-12 - especially the Greek word for "changed" (ἀλλαγήσονται/allagesontai/allaso/change/transform/make different).

And the word for "wrap up" - ἑλίξεις/elizeis/hilisso/roll up/to coil.

The context therefore means to "perish" as to its present form - Milky Way will be changed/transformed when it "wraps up" with other galaxies and thus will perish as to its present form - not literally go out of existence.

Another example of the gawds “finely tuned” universe.

Rabbi Mordechai Steinman
seems to think so.

The Fine Tuning of the Universe - Aish.com

An amazing array of scientists are bewildered by the design of the universe and admit a possibility of a designer.

www.aish.com

In fact, this "fine-tuning" is so pronounced, and the "coincidences" are so numerous, many scientists have come to espouse The Anthropic Principle, which contends that the universe was brought into existence intentionally for the sake of producing mankind.

.
for what purpose "intentionally for the sake of producing mankind" - seems quite an absurd notion when there is absolutely nothing mankind will ever accomplish on a universal scale ... as well as dishonest to place mankind above other living beings. -

being drunk on their own forgeries is more like it.

 

[ding]

Red shift due to speed - also a doppler effect/shift:

I get some of what you are talking about, but what about mapping a trip?

We can map our trip to the moon and sun (assuming we do not burn up). However, a trip to Alpha Centauri would be trickier. It would have moved in 4.4 light years. At the rate we are traveling, then we would have to have a computer powerful enough to make the necessary adjustments so that we would reach where the galaxy would be in 4.4 light years. If we cannot accurately calculate where it will be, then we could miss it completely. Thus, one needs to be able to plot the speed,direction, pull of gravity, time dilation, red shift, etc. in where Alpha Centauri is heading and we would have to plot some trajectory course in order to meet it 4.4 light years from now. If we can't map our trip, then it's moot. At some point, we won't be able to do it. So 25,000 light years would be impossible. Maybe 4.4 light years is impossible at 40% the speed of light. Thus, what we are seeing 4.4 light years away or anything we are seeing is misleading. Misleading may not be the proper scientific term, but it's not a straight line to 4.4. light years away as the graph shows. Space and time will be distorted so it would require some special kind of mapping. Traveling at even 20 - 40% the speed of light would change our trajectory. Maybe it is better to picture it as traveling as:

Scottie would have to have the computer calculate the proper coordinates for Captain Jim Kirk to arrive somewhere in Alpha Centauri accurately.

Another could be traveling at warp speed win a space ship and that would require something else which we do not know of yet.



Basically, if we can't map how far something is taking into account the various factors involved, then these light years distances are not correct.

Not to mention time! A quasar whose red shift indicates is 13 billion light years from earth also is plotting where it was 13 billion years ago - it may not even exist now - or may exist in a different form - e.g. a galaxy.

You bring up a good point - how do we date the upcoming merger of Milky Way with Andromeda?

We Finally Know When Our Milky Way Will Crash Into the Andromeda Galaxy

The Milky Way will survive in its current form a bit longer than astronomers had thought, a new study suggests.

www.space.com

"The monster collision between our Milky Way and fellow spiral galaxy Andromeda will occur about 4.5 billion years from now, according to the new research, which is based on observations made by Europe's Gaia spacecraft....

The team's models give a later-than-expected date for the Andromeda-Milky Way smashup and also suggest that it will be more of a sideswipe than a head-on collision. (Because the distances between stars are so great, the odds that our own solar system will be disrupted by the merger are very low. But the crash will definitely liven up the night sky for any creatures that are around on Earth 4.5 billion years from now.)....

By the way, Andromeda won't be the next galaxy our Milky Way slams into: The Large Magellanic Cloud and Milky Way will merge about 2.5 billion years from now, a recent study suggested."

Compare Hebrews 1:10-12 - especially the Greek word for "changed" (ἀλλαγήσονται/allagesontai/allaso/change/transform/make different).

And the word for "wrap up" - ἑλίξεις/elizeis/hilisso/roll up/to coil.

The context therefore means to "perish" as to its present form - Milky Way will be changed/transformed when it "wraps up" with other galaxies and thus will perish as to its present form - not literally go out of existence.

Another example of the gawds “finely tuned” universe.

Rabbi Mordechai Steinman
seems to think so.

The Fine Tuning of the Universe - Aish.com

An amazing array of scientists are bewildered by the design of the universe and admit a possibility of a designer.

www.aish.com

So what? You can find someone with any opinion, if you look hard enough. What does he think about ice cream, or leprechauns? Just as valid.

Hollie knows.