Zone1 If There Is No Sin In Heaven Then How Could Lucifer Sin?

[Blues Man]

All you people should love Satan as you love yourselves. He is one of your neighbors and one of your god's creations after all.

 

[Woodznutz]

What about the Bible verse that I posted though? Revelation 21:27 says otherwise.

All I can say is that Lucifer was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

 

[Road Runner]

All I can say is that Lucifer was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

So then what does that verse I posted actually mean?

 

[Woodznutz]

So then what does that verse I posted actually mean?

Sounds like you have to be sin free in order to get in. What happens a billion years later is anyone's guess.

 

[onefour1]

I think that when God asked for volunteers to be the Savior of the world and chose Jesus over Lucifer, Lucifer was angry and He then came up with his own plan of salvation which went against the plan of the Father. He proposed that we be sent to earth and be forced to be good beings and in this way he thought he could save all mankind and not one would be lost. The Father rejected this plan because one cannot truly be a good being unless he/she chooses of his/her own free will to be a good being. Basically Lucifer's plan would never work and Jesus said to the Father, "not my will, but thy will be done". Lucifer tried to get as many spirits to side with him and thought he could overcome the Father by having others side with him over the Father. Because of his rebellion against the Father, Lucifer was cast out of heaven and given the names Satan and Perdition. After being cast out, Satan still believed that he could win and sought to bring down all of mankind with him by tempting them to forsake God and rebel against him. The war in heaven has transferred to this earth.

 

[ding]

Revelation 21:27

Nothing unclean will enter "heaven" because it was cleansed by the blood of Christ. That doesn't mean you can't distance yourself from God once there. There are only three possible states; you can be moving towards God, you can be moving away from God or you can be static. I wouldn't assume that changes just because our material life ended.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Heaven was made “heavenly” again when undesirables were cast out.

The US could follow that example.

 

[Road Runner]

Heaven was made “heavenly” again when undesirables were cast out.

The US could follow that example.

That reminds me of this sign:

 

[Meriweather]

As I expected. Another preacher just made some shit up, and said "sure, it sounds like that might have happened"

I don't ready many "preachers". If I recall correctly this was just someone who did research on angels and compiled a book. It has angels I've never even heard of. If you know the Bible, then you probably know the person referenced in the translation from "Lucifer" referred to the King of Babylon if I recall correctly. I'd have to look it up. Remember, Jewish tradition is HaSatan, and that angel was more like a prosecuting attorney of someone who was doing wrong--or could be tempted into doing wrong. The Book of Job is an example of HaSatan.

Lucifer as Satan came together later.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Just my opinion of course.........


Lucifer had been a favored angel in Gods Kingdom. Then God made man and set him equal to (if not better than) His angels. Lucifer and other angels (his minions) became jealous of man and God for giving man such 'high status'. Lucifer then wanted to be like God Himself and have everyone worship him instead.

This/these were the sins, that developed in those angels hearts. The want of power and glory above all else. We as Christians, know that we are to only worship and glorify God. No one else and not ourselves. We are to be humble, whereas Lucifer became proud, greedy, vain, etc.

Since he and his were cast out of God's presence in Heaven, it's been a spiritual war for our very souls. God and His Son is truth and the way of Life everlasting. While Lucifer and his have been bent on our destruction with his lies and deceit to trick us away from God and His mercy.


FYI.......the passage you quoted of Revelations 21:27, as with any Bible verse, means very little on it's own. You have to find the context for better understanding. Revelations 21 starts out talking about the new Heaven and new earth that is created because the old ones were gone or destroyed.

And the fact Revelations is pretty much all about the End of Days.......that many of us think are happening as we speak.

 

[Road Runner]

JustAnotherNut So then what is Heaven compared with the new Heaven? This has always confused me as well.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

JustAnotherNut So then what is Heaven compared with the new Heaven? This has always confused me as well.

Honestly I don't know. I am not a theologian. My guess would be that in the new Heaven, the people, or souls of, have been tested for their faith and have been cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb, making them clean and free of sin.

And to the other half of that equation.......the old Heaven happened before sin was 'introduced'

 

[Meriweather]

So then what is Heaven compared with the new Heaven? This has always confused me as well.

At the time there was a well-known Greek philosophy that all that was physical here on Earth was first designed in heaven/spirit world. John's Revelation is a remarkable compilation of Isaiah and other Old Testament prophets in the form of a popular literary form at the time called Apocalyptic literature. Remember, Isaiah and other prophets said there would be a new Jerusalem to which those detained in Babylon would return. Also, Gentiles from all over the world would travel there, bringing gifts and worship.

The 'New Jerusalem' was being created from above in spirit, and this New Jerusalem would take form on Earth at some time.

 

[ninja007]

Obviously Lucifer had free will to choose to rebel against God in Heaven. Free will seems to be an eternal principle and is critical for our progression. Below are some of the verses from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint scripture that speak of Lucifer and his rebellion.

Revelation 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Doctrine and Covenants 76:25-39
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—
29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

Abraham 3:24-28
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Moses 4:1-6
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
5 And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made.
6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

NONE OF YOUR MAN MADE BOOKS/VERSES MEAN ANYTHING.

 

[onefour1]

NONE OF YOUR MAN MADE BOOKS/VERSES MEAN ANYTHING.

to you.

 

[Stann]

A question that I've been wondering for a while now, I just forgot to post it here. Any ideas?

The devil.doesn't exist. It's parable. Humans have choice , they can choose to.pove or they can choose to.hate. The former is a positive force , the later is a negative one. One promotes life, the other does not
One promotes growth , one does not. It's a choice you and only you can make. No one condemns you to your fate , you are in.control.of that.Nothing is wasted, nothing is destroyed, it's simply a realignment process. .

 

[Stann]

NONE OF YOUR MAN MADE BOOKS/VERSES MEAN ANYTHING.

It is designed as simplistic thoughts to.dpeakbto.everyomr.

 

[Stann]

All I can say is that Lucifer was perfect until iniquity was found in him.

And he was cast out ; Actually he was moved to.the furthest outreaches of the ethereal.universe where it is ironically cold , dark.and without hope. Far from the warmth , beauty and love of the ONE.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

A question that I've been wondering for a while now, I just forgot to post it here. Any ideas?

Lucifer was in charge of 1/3 of the angels who inhabited the EARTH, not heaven.

He set his heart to INVADE HEAVEN and dethrone God.

The One who was born as Jesus witnessed Lucifer being thrown back to earth.

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

Satan and his rebellious angels still LIVE ON THE EARTH

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Revelation 21:27



What does those verses have to do with my question?





Okay so does that mean that we could rebel and get kicked out of Heaven as well?

Humans will never "go to heaven.". That is a myth borrowed from paganism.

Jesus is returning to JERUSALEM along with the true Church.

We will rule the earth for 1,000 years.

After the Thousand Years, the Father will make His home on the earth as well.