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A question that I've been wondering for a while now, I just forgot to post it here. Any ideas?
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Zone1 If There Is No Sin In Heaven Then How Could Lucifer Sin?
- Thread starter Road Runner
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Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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There may be more than one explanation. One is that Lucifer was against the creation of man. Being against something is not a sin, but it seems it was enough for Lucifer to decide he was going to part ways with God. He had his own ideas he wanted to pursue instead of being a servant of God.
Sin is anything which distances one from God.A question that I've been wondering for a while now, I just forgot to post it here. Any ideas?
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Sin is anything which distances one from God.
Yeah, so why is it always talked about not being allowed in Heaven then?
BULLDOG
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I've never heard that. Where did you find that information?There may be more than one explanation. One is that Lucifer was against the creation of man. Being against something is not a sin, but it seems it was enough for Lucifer to decide he was going to part ways with God. He had his own ideas he wanted to pursue instead of being a servant of God.
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It wasn't, that's why Lucifer, and his angels, got kicked out.Yeah, so why is it always talked about not being allowed in Heaven then?
BULLDOG
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Who knows. Preachers make all kinds of stuff up, and say God told them.Yeah, so why is it always talked about not being allowed in Heaven then?
Who talks about that?Yeah, so why is it always talked about not being allowed in Heaven then?
August West
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Actually, in heaven there is no beer, that`s why we drink it here. I`ve been to dozens of Polish and Slovak weddings so I`m well acquainted with the song`s lyrics.A question that I've been wondering for a while now, I just forgot to post it here. Any ideas?
Maybe he asked God for too many favors.A question that I've been wondering for a while now, I just forgot to post it here. Any ideas?
- Banned
- #12
In whatever reality, dimension, "Heaven" or what have you that angels/souls/spirits exist in, angels probably can do anything they like, except defy God. Since I'm confident that the reality we are in while cloaked or animated in our meat suits is established to refine our souls and make us worthy of living in "Heaven", "sin" has to be an available choice. Keep making that choice, and you don't graduate. I've made lots of bad choices, but I'm doing my best to not only do good, but encourage others to do the same.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
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I do a lot of reading. While I don't recall which commentary, try Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28 for an idea what a commentary might add to these chapters. I don't remember the verses.I've never heard that. Where did you find that information?
Obviously Lucifer had free will to choose to rebel against God in Heaven. Free will seems to be an eternal principle and is critical for our progression. Below are some of the verses from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint scripture that speak of Lucifer and his rebellion.
Revelation 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Doctrine and Covenants 76:25-39
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—
29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
Abraham 3:24-28
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Moses 4:1-6
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
5 And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made.
6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.
Revelation 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Doctrine and Covenants 76:25-39
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—
29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
Abraham 3:24-28
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Moses 4:1-6
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
5 And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made.
6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.
BULLDOG
Diamond Member
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As I expected. Another preacher just made some shit up, and said "sure, it sounds like that might have happened"I do a lot of reading. While I don't recall which commentary, try Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28 for an idea what a commentary might add to these chapters. I don't remember the verses.
Woodznutz
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Lucifer assumed he was equal with God and so felt entitled to a similar heavenly office. He was the 'king of the earth' and indeed had a 'throne' (monarchal position) on the earth. In short he wanted to also 'wear the pants in the family' along with God. Up until that event there was no sin. However, God deemed it rebellion against his never-before-challenged authority and thus 'sin' was born and imputed to Lucifer and that event.
Other opinions are that Lucifer was against the saving of man, as was other beings.There may be more than one explanation. One is that Lucifer was against the creation of man. Being against something is not a sin, but it seems it was enough for Lucifer to decide he was going to part ways with God. He had his own ideas he wanted to pursue instead of being a servant of God.
Lucifer was outraged that God gave mankind, a creation unworthy of his grace, a place among them.
So much so that he set out to show God how easily mankind is to engage in wickedness and disobedience.
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I've never heard that. Where did you find that information?
Who talks about that?
Revelation 21:27
I do a lot of reading. While I don't recall which commentary, try Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28 for an idea what a commentary might add to these chapters. I don't remember the verses.
What does those verses have to do with my question?
Lucifer assumed he was equal with God and so felt entitled to a similar heavenly office. He was the 'king of the earth' and indeed had a 'throne' (monarchal position) on the earth. In short he wanted to also 'wear the pants in the family' along with God. Up until that event there was no sin. However, God deemed it rebellion against his never-before-challenged authority and thus 'sin' was born and imputed to Lucifer and that event.
Okay so does that mean that we could rebel and get kicked out of Heaven as well?
Woodznutz
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That might actually be a possibility.Revelation 21:27
What does those verses have to do with my question?
Okay so does that mean that we could rebel and get kicked out of Heaven as well?
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That might actually be a possibility.
What about the Bible verse that I posted though? Revelation 21:27 says otherwise.
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