If Obama stays pat, he's won the "Fiscal Cliff" battle.

[Sallow]

Can't answer, I see. I am not surprised.

It's a simple question: What does the COUNTRY win? (If Obama wins)

Same thing it won under Clinton.

Get on the road to fiscal sanity.

It was your peeps that abandoned paygo and so many other things.

Same thing it won under Clinton? So you attribute the internet bubble to Clinton?

The "bubble" isn't what you folks think it was.

As in "no bailout required".

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

..... and the PUBs are intellectually paralyzed. The argument that needs to be made is that INCOME TAX is already at a progressive limit. 47% of filings pay ZERO for the day to day operation of the govt and the top 2% pay 40% of the freight.

That's progressive enough and FAIRNESS is not a card that should be able to be played without hysterical laughter. So the Pubs SHOULD be pushing for revenue increases to be applied ACROSS the board. JUST THE OPPOSITE of the bush tax cuts.

In fact --- jump the fiscal molehill --- and we're there. ALL THE WAY ===== to "fairness".

the reason the 47% pay no federal income tax is actually due to GOP policies of the last 30 years in lowering tax rates and increasing deductions. why is the GOP upset that their policies of reducing taxes have actually worked?

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

Can't answer, I see. I am not surprised.

It's a simple question: What does the COUNTRY win? (If Obama wins)

The country wins a sensible, responsible, and pragmatic approach to deficit reduction, as opposed to the right’s dogmatic and irresponsible approach.

So raising taxes in a weak economy and cutting spending massively will result in a sensible approach to deficit reduction? Is this the new left wing talking point?

the economy is not technically weak. hence why they are calling this a jobless recovery. current GDP is around 2.7%, historic GDP average since 1947 has been around 3.2%, stock market sits about 13,000 points.

this is the first time in history we are seeing this type of recovery as businesses maximize profits at the expense of low wages and high unemployment.

 

[flacaltenn]

..... and the PUBs are intellectually paralyzed. The argument that needs to be made is that INCOME TAX is already at a progressive limit. 47% of filings pay ZERO for the day to day operation of the govt and the top 2% pay 40% of the freight.

That's progressive enough and FAIRNESS is not a card that should be able to be played without hysterical laughter. So the Pubs SHOULD be pushing for revenue increases to be applied ACROSS the board. JUST THE OPPOSITE of the bush tax cuts.

In fact --- jump the fiscal molehill --- and we're there. ALL THE WAY ===== to "fairness".

the reason the 47% pay no federal income tax is actually due to GOP policies of the last 30 years in lowering tax rates and increasing deductions. why is the GOP upset that their policies of reducing taxes have actually worked?

That's actually true as well. In fact the Bush tax cuts added several percent to the 47%.

But much more devious and cyniical is the Dear Leader bragging about giving 97% of Americans "a tax break" and then stealing $30B/yr from the FICA revenues and watching Soc Sec go negative 6 years ahead of schedule. THAT'S where "fairness" leads.

A race to the bottom? Maybe.. But what I agree with Pubs about is that MANAGING the budget comes first with a responsibility to stop lying about "cuts" when all you doing is reducing the rate of INCREASE in spending.

Ron Paul and Gary Johnson are not in the least confused by the Washington lies or the dogma of Grover Norquist.. And off the top of ANY Libertarian's head --- they can point to literally HUNDREDS of BILLIONS in real cuts BEFORE we even touch Soc Sec and Medicare. I KNOW it can be done..

The message should be "Taxes are Progressive Enough when 47% don't contribute to the daily operation of the Fed Govt". And if revenues are NEEDED --- then Corporate Subsidies for dishwashers and ethanol should go first.

 

[SniperFire]

When the middle class gets slammed because Obama refuses to extend the tax cuts, Obama can tell them he did it out of 'principle. '

Same thing when their healthcare premiums double. Obama can tell the middle class he is crushing them for the 'greater good. '


LOL

 

[Toro]

And he may get what he wants in terms of the debt ceiling as well.

At this point, there is almost no upside to dealing with Republicans. Actually..there is none.

Once the Fiscal Cliff is done, so are they. They will lose the house in 2014.

Obama gets to sunset the Bush Tax cuts..and get the Defense cuts that were necessary to balance the budget. And he's got a great deal of leverage..since he can soften those.

Well played.

Personally..I didn't see this when the sequester deal was done.

I'm not sure why you think the Dems will win in 2014 after going over the fiscal cliff, causing a recession and everyone's taxes to rise. That's not usually a winning formula.

 

[flacaltenn]

Just gotta say...............

You gotta be crazy to want to be in political leadership of EITHER Dems or Reps for the next 10 years. It's like purposely traveling to Tanzania for the annual monkey shitstorm.

 

[thereisnospoon]

There are smart ways to cut spending and stupid ways.

Obama went with "smart" when he enacted the ACA..which saved about 750 Billion dollars in Medicare spending. Another good one was getting the banks out of student loans.

But of course people are going to grouse about those sorts of spending cuts. Since they are the real pork that enriches to the private sector.

That's funny. Obama "saves" 3/4's of a trillion bucks by spending $2.6 Trillion..
Yep, left wing math.
You people are very funny. In one rant you are screaming about cuts to medicare. On the other, you are cheering for the gutting of medicare.
Left wing math. Where a reduction in an increase is viewed as a "cut".
Without looking it up, explain the term "baseline budgeting".
Don't look it up. I will be able to tell if you did.
The answer you give is key. Goes to your credibility.

You're not making any sense.

You do not know? Fine.

 

[thereisnospoon]

There are smart ways to cut spending and stupid ways.

Obama went with "smart" when he enacted the ACA..which saved about 750 Billion dollars in Medicare spending. Another good one was getting the banks out of student loans.

But of course people are going to grouse about those sorts of spending cuts. Since they are the real pork that enriches to the private sector.

A govt program saving money?! Is your comedy act in town tonight, Sallow?

Funny..that's exactly what it did.

I sat on a jury which was hauling a pharmacist into to court for fraud and peddling drugs. This was made possible by the ACA, which funded a brand new Unit in medicare that worked just on these sorts of cases in tandem with the police. They set up a sting operation that nailed this guy. Turns out he bilked the government of nearly 50 grand in one year.

And that's just one guy.

Oh please.
So, let's see, Obama and his cronies rammed this shitty law down our throats to put laws on the books that are now redundant.
Actually it is the DA's/Prosecutor/solicitor that brings charges. Juries are impartial panels charged with the duty to decide guilt or innocence by examining evidence and testimony of witnesses brought before them.

 

[thereisnospoon]

View attachment 23085

Obama is planning on telling Karzai that the US will start to think about maybe beginning to prepare for leaving if the US can train 23 Afghani brigades to run without major support in two years. We're going to be in Afghanistan for a long time.

Hell, we're still on the Korean peninsula with treaties in place limiting the size and shape of the South Korean military! Anyone who thinks the leadership of either party wants to get us out of Afghanistan is seriously delusional.

Here is he difference between a nuclear showdown with Iran/North Korea with:

Romney in power.

View attachment 23085

And Obummer in power.

View attachment 23086

I don't know, I understand what you're saying and I might be apt to agree with you but I've been pleased with the social progress being made domestically. I don't think the slow tide of positive change would be occurring without the Obama energy. I was at the very front of a 10,000 people strong gay rights march that spontaneous happened after Santorum's anti-gay bill happened. And there was a lot of positivity about Obama being elected and what that meant for possible social changes in the future, not just for the gay community but for our society as a whole. I think Obama being elected has energized my generation to get politically active. I don't know if Obama the man has anything to do with it but like I said that Obama energy is significant.

I really think Romney would've fucked this country up. Of course we'd survive it and everything would come out alright. But it would be like another Bush dark age.

Social issues. The bane of our existence.
We spend so much time kowtowing to the lowest common denominator through the use of political correctness, w have lost all focus on the important things.
Such as growing our economy and allowing the private sector to put people back to work.
Your post has no credibility based on your apparent focus on a single issue.
How about NOT being so selfish and thinking only of yourself and your "feelings" and come on in for the big win.
If you cannot figure out what that means, there is no hope for you.
To be blunt, I despise single issue obsessed people.
Getting right to the point, I don't care with whom you sleep. Just don't make it my problem. I have things to do. I have my own problems to deal with. I refuse to make them yours. Don't make your problem, my problem.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I don't know, I understand what you're saying and I might be apt to agree with you but I've been pleased with the social progress being made domestically. I don't think of the slow tide of positive change would be occurring without the Obama energy. I was at the very front of a 10,000 people strong gay rights march that spontaneous happened after Santorum's anti-gay bill happened. And there was a lot of positivity about Obama being elected and what that meant for possible social changes in the future, not just for the gay community but for our society as a whole. I think Obama being elected has energized my generation to get politically active. I don't know if Obama the man has anything to do with it but like I said that Obama energy is significant.

I really think Romney would've fucked this country up. Of course we'd survive it and everything would come out alright. But it would be like another Bush dark age.

Government should not even be in the business of marriage. Again, there is no solution other than a big government solution for either party.

To pit citizen against citizen by asking them to vote for or against gay marriage is an obamanation. But then, that is how government works. If they treated everyone the same, like polygamists, then there would be no interest in government and no money flowing in, in order to obtain a superior position over our fellow citizens. So those polygamists better start writing those checks and planning those polygamist rights parades or no one will ever give a damn about them.

Then again, I can't really blame those in governemnt for wanting to talk about gay sex. What else are they going to talk about, bringing the troops home or balancing budgets? LOL.

Who we elect to represent us as our number one is very significant as a sign of the times. Look of the impact of JFK being elected and how that energized his times. Or even as far back as when Teddy Roosevelt fell ass backwards into the Presidency in his time. Obama will get a lot more credit in history than he deserves just because of the energy around him and it's effect on society.

Unreal.. So let me get this straight so I understand, you vote for people who may or may not bring results,, but you are satisfied as long as the President "makes you feel good"?

 

[thereisnospoon]

We have to get serious about the National Debt, we need more spending cuts too. I think everyone should scarifice, rich, poor and in-between.

I think we need to realize what our real problems are first. The vast majority of our current debt is tied to two things, a very bad economy and tax rates that are slightly too low. We need to raise taxes slightly. The rest is just getting the economy going again. If we can get the economy to grow at a 4% clip, revenue will increase, and a good chunk of spending on welfare programs will be reduced. All of what we are seeing now is just a blip due to the long recession.

This does not mean we don't have big problems, because we do. Long term spending on SS and Medicare is way underfunded. We have to address this, especially when it comes to Medicare. Either we need to increase taxes substantially for everyone, or we need to make some cuts in Medicare. For a long time, I have been a big proponent of raising the retirement age for Medicare. I still am. I'm just not sure when it's going to happen. Something tells me we will put it off for as long as possible, which unfortunately will make the eventual fix that much tougher.

You did not mention government spending. Would you care to explain why?

 

[thereisnospoon]

We have to get serious about the National Debt, we need more spending cuts too. I think everyone should scarifice, rich, poor and in-between.

I think we need to realize what our real problems are first. The vast majority of our current debt is tied to two things, a very bad economy and tax rates that are slightly too low. We need to raise taxes slightly. The rest is just getting the economy going again. If we can get the economy to grow at a 4% clip, revenue will increase, and a good chunk of spending on welfare programs will be reduced. All of what we are seeing now is just a blip due to the long recession.

This does not mean we don't have big problems, because we do. Long term spending on SS and Medicare is way underfunded. We have to address this, especially when it comes to Medicare. Either we need to increase taxes substantially for everyone, or we need to make some cuts in Medicare. For a long time, I have been a big proponent of raising the retirement age for Medicare. I still am. I'm just not sure when it's going to happen. Something tells me we will put it off for as long as possible, which unfortunately will make the eventual fix that much tougher.

Raising the Medicare age won't achieve any savings. It will probably have the opposite effect.

How so?

 

[flacaltenn]

The govt considers it Medicare FRAUD when folks admitted into a Hospice don't die in 60 days.

That was common in Florida to go after nursing homes because they ALLOWED folks into hospice rather than continuing more EXPENSIVE procedures.. Go figure. Try to save Uncle Sam money -- wind up in court...

Tells you something about the claims of "savings" thru prosecution --- dont it?

 

[thereisnospoon]

"I" have "broccoli" for brains and yet you basically can't, as a grownup, discuss what a politically astounding move this was without deflecting into some hyperbolic mess that really doesn't have much to do with the topic.

In 2010 the public gave Obama a house filled with a majority of hard right radical right wingers bent on making him a one term President. And they did some very radical maneuvers to make it so, like evoking a record number of filibusters and holding the debt ceiling hostage.

I don't care where you sit politically..but this was a master stroke, and people who are political junkies should see that.

He got his opposition to trap themselves and declare victory about it.

Boehner Christmas II - YouTube

That's just really amazing.

Hey I credit your brain. I myself am just a couple carrots short of full salad. But yet -- I'm not impressed at all by the "brilliance" of this temper tantrum.

I don't celebrate triumphs based on lies and class warfare. I don't want to give the complicit media a pass when they'd rather monitor twitter than dive into a 20,000 page budget analysis. NONE of this deception is helpful. And with "my brain" -- I can't suspend logic, reason and facts to drive this country in harmful directions --- just to acheive political goals.

Except..none of that is really happening.

It's astounding you folks don't seriously know how societies function..or don't function.

When you have a situation when a small group of people hold all the marbles, the society will cease to function effectively.

That's why, for the most part, places with Monarchies, Aristocracies, Plutocracies, Oligarchies and Dictatorships don't last very long.

Humans band together to do things that it would be hard to do as an indivdual. Part of that social compact is that each indivdual gets a benefit from doing that.

If that's not happening..then there is no reason to band together.

And confiscatory taxation for the sole purpose of people like you getting the satisfaction of knowing the rich got screwed?
Is this your "road to prosperity"?

 

[Votto]

Hey I credit your brain. I myself am just a couple carrots short of full salad. But yet -- I'm not impressed at all by the "brilliance" of this temper tantrum.

I don't celebrate triumphs based on lies and class warfare. I don't want to give the complicit media a pass when they'd rather monitor twitter than dive into a 20,000 page budget analysis. NONE of this deception is helpful. And with "my brain" -- I can't suspend logic, reason and facts to drive this country in harmful directions --- just to acheive political goals.

Except..none of that is really happening.

It's astounding you folks don't seriously know how societies function..or don't function.

When you have a situation when a small group of people hold all the marbles, the society will cease to function effectively.

That's why, for the most part, places with Monarchies, Aristocracies, Plutocracies, Oligarchies and Dictatorships don't last very long.

Humans band together to do things that it would be hard to do as an indivdual. Part of that social compact is that each indivdual gets a benefit from doing that.

If that's not happening..then there is no reason to band together.

And confiscatory taxation for the sole purpose of people like you getting the satisfaction of knowing the rich got screwed?
Is this your "road to prosperity"?

What I don't get is the continuing war on wealth in America, championed by the democrats. However, when the middle class continues to shrink and the 1% becomes less than the 1% they all scratch their collective heads and wonder how Wall Street is screwing society.

Libtarted.

 

[J.E.D]

I am aware that Obama has no upside to deal with Republicans. And he may get what he wants, but that doesn't mean we need to give it to him. Especially when it's not good for the nation. If he wants to take the nation over the fiscal cliff here, let him own it.

He won't own it; Republicans will. Just look at polling.

Obama's approval rating has risen 12 points since August 2011. The approval rating of Republicans in Congress sits at 25 percent, hovering around the 22-percent level it fell to in the wake of the debt ceiling crisis.

The Republican Party's favorable-to-unfavorable split is 36-59. The Democratic Party's is 48-47.

Only 46 percent of Republican voters approve of Republican leaders in Congress. By comparison, 71 percent of Democrats approve of their party's leaders in Congress.

House Speaker John Boehner's favorable-to-unfavorable split sits at 21-40.

More people think Democrats can "do a better job" handling jobs, the economy, Medicare, health care, Social Security and education.

By a 53-33 margin, more Americans think the GOP is "more extreme in its positions."

By a 69-28 margin, Americans support raising tax rates on incomes above $250,000.

The only significant spending cuts that voters favor are reductions in Medicare and Social Security benefits to upper-income Americans.


Read more: Fiscal Cliff Poll Brutal For Republicans - Business Insider

 

[Stephanie]

And he may get what he wants in terms of the debt ceiling as well.

At this point, there is almost no upside to dealing with Republicans. Actually..there is none.

Once the Fiscal Cliff is done, so are they. They will lose the house in 2014.

Obama gets to sunset the Bush Tax cuts..and get the Defense cuts that were necessary to balance the budget. And he's got a great deal of leverage..since he can soften those.

Well played.

Personally..I didn't see this when the sequester deal was done.

wow, cheering for higher taxes and gutting our defenses all for a Obama win..
dissapointed in you my dear

 

[Sallow]

Government should not even be in the business of marriage. Again, there is no solution other than a big government solution for either party.

To pit citizen against citizen by asking them to vote for or against gay marriage is an obamanation. But then, that is how government works. If they treated everyone the same, like polygamists, then there would be no interest in government and no money flowing in, in order to obtain a superior position over our fellow citizens. So those polygamists better start writing those checks and planning those polygamist rights parades or no one will ever give a damn about them.

Then again, I can't really blame those in governemnt for wanting to talk about gay sex. What else are they going to talk about, bringing the troops home or balancing budgets? LOL.

Who we elect to represent us as our number one is very significant as a sign of the times. Look of the impact of JFK being elected and how that energized his times. Or even as far back as when Teddy Roosevelt fell ass backwards into the Presidency in his time. Obama will get a lot more credit in history than he deserves just because of the energy around him and it's effect on society.

Unreal.. So let me get this straight so I understand, you vote for people who may or may not bring results,, but you are satisfied as long as the President "makes you feel good"?

You vote for Reagan?

 

[Sallow]

And he may get what he wants in terms of the debt ceiling as well.

At this point, there is almost no upside to dealing with Republicans. Actually..there is none.

Once the Fiscal Cliff is done, so are they. They will lose the house in 2014.

Obama gets to sunset the Bush Tax cuts..and get the Defense cuts that were necessary to balance the budget. And he's got a great deal of leverage..since he can soften those.

Well played.

Personally..I didn't see this when the sequester deal was done.

I'm not sure why you think the Dems will win in 2014 after going over the fiscal cliff, causing a recession and everyone's taxes to rise. That's not usually a winning formula.

Because they won't be seen as responsible.

Right now close to 80% of the public thinks taxes should go up.

Obama's at 51% popularity.

And congress is in the low teens.