Zone1 If I had not been raised Catholic... it would have been a disaster

[Blues Man]

I disagree. That's why you keep coming back.

I can just as easily ignore you again too but you would say you "win" if I did that too.

You would win when you change my mind and you have yet to propose any argument that even comes close to that. the

 

[nomadic5]

No he doesn't.

We are conditioned from birth to obey the mores of the society we live in.

If a person could be raised with absolutely no influences from society he would not magically know what is "right" and "wrong".

BS

We are born knowing right from wrong, not perfectly as all of us are born just screaming for food and warmth and etc... (self-focused totally)

But in any case, In the first chapter of Romans it talks about this kind of thing.. basically saying that God can easily be discerned and understood (at least to some extent, I would add) and so humans are WITHOUT EXCUSE (for their vile sins)

 

[nomadic5]

You're not.

People do not just "know" right from wrong.
And "right " and "wrong" mean different things to different people

I disagree.

No one can look @ an aborted child and say that that is RIGHT

People who do are morally vaccuous, have no conscience.. (or are LYING)

 

[Blues Man]

BS

We are born knowing right from wrong, not perfectly as all of us are born just screaming for food and warmth and etc... (self-focused totally)

But in any case, In the first chapter of Romans it talks about this kind of thing.. basically saying that God can easily be discerned and understood (at least to some extent, I would add) and so humans are WITHOUT EXCUSE (for their vile sins)

We are born knowing nothing.

And the bible says nothing that wasn't written by a human and quite frankly a lot of the bible is just plagiarized bits and pieces from other philosophies.

 

[Blues Man]

I disagree.

No one can look @ an aborted child and say that that is RIGHT

People who do are morally vaccuous, have no conscience.. (or are LYING)

Morals are relative always have been always will be.

 

[Zebra]

I think about this sometimes:

If I had not been raised Catholic, and yet everything else was the same, I would not be a good person.

I would NOT be a conservative... OK, I'm talking about if I wasn't raised in any Christian religions... Sorry about the mistake.

But even if I had been raised, say, Baptist, I probably would not have stayed with that religion and again, I would likely be a bad person, maybe even a..

OMG OMG

liberal!?

No, I'm too smart for that!

But then again... hard to say, really...

I'm just glad I had the honor of ... not growing up anti-Catholic..

I wouldn't know what I know

why?

 

[ding]

Which one? We have touched on lots of points.

That man's propensity for good even when he violates it is universal.

 

[ding]

Morals are relative always have been always will be.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

 

[ding]

I can just as easily ignore you again too but you would say you "win" if I did that too.

You would win when you change my mind and you have yet to propose any argument that even comes close to that. the

It's not my job to change your mind. My obligation is satisfied when I present the evidence to you. What you do with it is between you and God.

 

[ding]

Morals are relative always have been always will be.

The moral life is emphasized in all branches of Buddhism. Buddhists emphasise virtues such as non-violence and compassion and Buddhism counsels us not to do anything to others we would not like done to ourselves. Despite the diversity in the different strands of Buddhism there is much common ground. ‘Buddhist morality’ argues that there is a common moral code underlying the divergent customs, practices, and philosophical teachings of the various schools of Buddhist thought.

Buddhist morality

Abstract. The moral life is emphasized in all branches of Buddhism. Buddhists emphasise virtues such as non-violence and compassion and Buddhism counsels us not

academic.oup.com

 

[nomadic5]

We are born knowing nothing.

And the bible says nothing that wasn't written by a human and quite frankly a lot of the bible is just plagiarized bits and pieces from other philosophies.

Not so on that last thing. And even if the best educated theologian cannot convince others that the Bible is from God, and I don't think any can... What about the notion that if everyone adhered to the Bible --esp the NEW T (Christ-centered principles) --as actually BEING that... the world would be a WAY better place?

You cannot deny that.

 

[nomadic5]

why?

if I'd been raised Protestant, I would likely dislike the Catholic Church because that is what I was taught, and Protestant pastors are good at getting their congregations to do that.. I see evidence of THAT all over the place and have for many years... Fortunately, I had a fairly devout Catholic father... then I had EXPERIENCE... always a great teacher

 

[Blues Man]

That man's propensity for good even when he violates it is universal.

It's not universal because humans do not populate the entire universe.

And you cannot counter the fact that what has been considered good and evil has changed over time. That morality is not only subjective but it is also flexible.

 

[Blues Man]

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

No it doesn't. The standards have been established over time by societies and as such those standards have evolved and will keep evolving.

And only children have an expectation of fairness. Adults know that there is no such thing in nature as fairness and that nature is not good or evil it just is.

Tell me when a person sets out to rob you what fairness do you expect? If a person attacks you do you expect he will fight according to some set of agreed upon rules? If you have to defend yourself physically will you fight "fair"? I wouldn't.


Fairness is a human construct that is based in cooperation and the survival of a society. It does not exist in nature.

 

[Blues Man]

It's not my job to change your mind. My obligation is satisfied when I present the evidence to you. What you do with it is between you and God.

And when ? refute that evidence as I have done?

And there is nothing between me and any gods.

 

[Blues Man]

The moral life is emphasized in all branches of Buddhism. Buddhists emphasise virtues such as non-violence and compassion and Buddhism counsels us not to do anything to others we would not like done to ourselves. Despite the diversity in the different strands of Buddhism there is much common ground. ‘Buddhist morality’ argues that there is a common moral code underlying the divergent customs, practices, and philosophical teachings of the various schools of Buddhist thought.

Buddhist morality

Abstract. The moral life is emphasized in all branches of Buddhism. Buddhists emphasise virtues such as non-violence and compassion and Buddhism counsels us not

academic.oup.com

So what?

Lots of people think that there is some universal moral code. I don't agree with anyone who says that and the history of the human race proves my point.

Why do you think because I have taken parts of Buddhism into my personal philosophy that I must agree 100% with everything any Buddhist ever said.

 

[Blues Man]

Not so on that last thing. And even if the best educated theologian cannot convince others that the Bible is from God, and I don't think any can... What about the notion that if everyone adhered to the Bible --esp the NEW T (Christ-centered principles) --as actually BEING that... the world would be a WAY better place?

You cannot deny that.

It's not from god because god didn't write it. What you know as the bible has been decided for you by men.

 

[Blues Man]

if I'd been raised Protestant, I would likely dislike the Catholic Church because that is what I was taught, and Protestant pastors are good at getting their congregations to do that.. I see evidence of THAT all over the place and have for many years... Fortunately, I had a fairly devout Catholic father... then I had EXPERIENCE... always a great teacher

Then if you had been raised not to believe in gods you have to accept that you wouldn't believe right?

 

[nomadic5]

Morals are relative always have been always will be.

Truth is not at all relative, never has been, never will be (Notice how I use commas! Amazing!)

Reality is not at all relative, never has been, never will be.

 

[nomadic5]

Then if you had been raised not to believe in gods you have to accept that you wouldn't believe right?

No, I would have missed out. There is believing and there is KNOWING.

I am grateful for knowing what I know today