Zone1 I say there is more to Jesus's Death on the Cross than salvation

[forkintheroad7]

I am not speaking for the Catholic Church here. Who knows what any given clergyman would think of what I am saying here?

I just think that, while Salvation is the Number One Reason for Jesus dying on the Cross, there are other things we can glean from said Cross.

When I look @ a crucifix, I sometimes think: Yeh, Jesus... You are still on that Cross because Your people are on various crosses.. (He said we would be "hated by all" because of Him, so there's that in all Christians' lives)

People who say Jesus did it all and there's nothing more to it... are not correct.

Somewhere in the Word it says that we His followers are to "make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings"

It isn't just Protestants who are (likely) befuddled by that one. I never understood it myself, to speak of, until recently.

Christians have sufferings Jesus never had.. He was not married, for instance. So married people have crosses He didn't have.. (We all know what a huge cross the former Mrs Kanye West must have had... for example).

 

[Cougarbear]

I am not speaking for the Catholic Church here. Who knows what any given clergyman would think of what I am saying here?

I just think that, while Salvation is the Number One Reason for Jesus dying on the Cross, there are other things we can glean from said Cross.

When I look @ a crucifix, I sometimes think: Yeh, Jesus... You are still on that Cross because Your people are on various crosses.. (He said we would be "hated by all" because of Him, so there's that in all Christians' lives)

People who say Jesus did it all and there's nothing more to it... are not correct.

Somewhere in the Word it says that we His followers are to "make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings"

It isn't just Protestants who are (likely) befuddled by that one. I never understood it myself, to speak of, until recently.

Christians have sufferings Jesus never had.. He was not married, for instance. So married people have crosses He didn't have.. (We all know what a huge cross the former Mrs Kanye West must have had... for example).

He also descended to the lower parts of the the earth to take upon him all of our sins whom repent. He knows our sufferings even if he hasn't gone through them. Empathy and compassion isn't something that has to be experienced to have those things. However, you are correct about grace being for our salvation. But, not for our exaltation. We all will be resurrected no matter our crimes. Where we end up will be decided upon our faith in Christ and did we keep those two great commandments (which are the 10 commandments). As Paul said, he was caught up in the 3rd heaven. That means there are two other parts of Heaven. He stated them in 1Corinthians Chapter 15, Celestial, Terrestrial and of the Stars. One glory greater than the other in the resurrection. The highest, Celestial Glory, requires baptism by one who has the authority to baptize. Not just anyone can baptize. That's why people sought out John the Baptist including Jesus Christ. It takes more as well but you would have to be teachable to learn.

 

[forkintheroad7]

We all will be resurrected no matter our crimes. Where we end up will be decided upon our faith in Christ and did we keep those two great commandments (which are the 10 commandments). As Paul said, he was caught up in the 3rd heaven. That means there are two other parts of Heaven. ... Not just anyone can baptize. That's why people sought out John the Baptist including Jesus Christ. It takes more as well but you would have to be teachable to learn.

well, I disagree on the baptism thing. Anyone CAN baptize in an emergency when there is no priest around. That's what original Church teaches

 

[Cougarbear]

well, I disagree on the baptism thing. Anyone CAN baptize in an emergency when there is no priest around. That's what original Church teaches

No it doesn’t. Show this in the Bible. Didn’t Paul find a city where people had received the Holy Ghost but were not baptized? Yes. When the priests came to them they were then baptized. How does anyone take upon them authority without it first being given to them by one who has the authority? Even in your church baptisms have to be done by those with your priests that can do it.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

well, I disagree on the baptism thing. Anyone CAN baptize in an emergency when there is no priest around. That's what original Church teaches

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Our priest just re-confirmed this in our regular adult discussion group today.

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[forkintheroad7]

No it doesn’t. Show this in the Bible.

I stopped @ the first error

Catholics don't go by Bible alone..

Nor should they

 

[forkintheroad7]

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Our priest just re-confirmed this in our regular adult discussion group today.

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Thanks. Now you can tell Cougarbear (he's confused on which one of those animals he is most like... )

since he doesn't know Catholicism but thinks he does (hey, like every Protestant)

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Thanks. Now you can tell Cougarbear (he's confused on which one of those animals he is most like... )

since he doesn't know Catholicism but thinks he does (hey, like every Protestant)

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Our discussion group is studying the history of the Catholic church in South Dakota, and in the beginning of the diocese, there were so few priests that often, if a family knew their baby was going to die before a priest could get there to baptize the baby, any lay person was able to do the baptism, as long as they used the proper form.

I trust my priest.

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[Cougarbear]

I stopped @ the first error

Catholics don't go by Bible alone..

Nor should they

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't go just by the Bible either. We have Prophets and other scripture that we've cannonized. But that doesn't mean that the Bible can be excluded. You said the original Church which would be only by the writings of the Apostles. So, to answer this question about Baptism, only the Bible can be used by Catholics and Protestants. If it's not in that doctrine, it's not usable.

 

[Cougarbear]

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Our discussion group is studying the history of the Catholic church in South Dakota, and in the beginning of the diocese, there were so few priests that often, if a family knew their baby was going to die before a priest could get there to baptize the baby, any lay person was able to do the baptism, as long as they used the proper form.

I trust my priest.

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Where in South Dakota again are you from? I was born in Deadwood.

 

[Cougarbear]

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Our discussion group is studying the history of the Catholic church in South Dakota, and in the beginning of the diocese, there were so few priests that often, if a family knew their baby was going to die before a priest could get there to baptize the baby, any lay person was able to do the baptism, as long as they used the proper form.

I trust my priest.

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Our Church believes it's an abomination to baptize a baby or small child of less than 8 years of age. The reason is that Baptism is for the remission of sins and a small child cannot take part in sinning. I know that you think we are born in sin because of Adam's transgressions. But, in a recent interview on TV with the Pope, he said all people are born good people. I agree with him. People learn to sin by observations and eventually temptations. We are not going to be judged by Adam's transgressions or anyone else. We will be judged based on us alone. However, if the "fathers" sins cause their children and generations to come to be wicked and evil, then they will be judged on that too.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Our Church believes it's an abomination to baptize a baby or small child of less than 8 years of age. The reason is that Baptism is for the remission of sins and a small child cannot take part in sinning. I know that you think we are born in sin because of Adam's transgressions. But, in a recent interview on TV with the Pope, he said all people are born good people. I agree with him. People learn to sin by observations and eventually temptations. We are not going to be judged by Adam's transgressions or anyone else. We will be judged based on us alone. However, if the "fathers" sins cause their children and generations to come to be wicked and evil, then they will be judged on that too.

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Thanks for sharing.

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[OhPleaseJustQuit]

Where in South Dakota again are you from? I was born in Deadwood.

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Eastriver

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[forkintheroad7]

the Pope, he said all people are born good people. I agree with him.

WHAT?!

All people are born good?

Have you ever seen children when another child takes a toy from them? Ever seen one throw a temper tantrum?

And then there are adults!

Right, we see SO much good in humans, don't we?

The Bible says that the human heart is perverse

 

[surada]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't go just by the Bible either. We have Prophets and other scripture that we've cannonized. But that doesn't mean that the Bible can be excluded. You said the original Church which would be only by the writings of the Apostles. So, to answer this question about Baptism, only the Bible can be used by Catholics and Protestants. If it's not in that doctrine, it's not usable.

Prophets like Julie Greene?

 

[Care4all]

WHAT?!

All people are born good?

Have you ever seen children when another child takes a toy from them? Ever seen one throw a temper tantrum?

And then there are adults!

Right, we see SO much good in humans, don't we?

The Bible says that the human heart is perverse

No, not with children.

Matthew 18 ►

New International Version Par ▾ Matthew 18 ► New International Version Par ▾ The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. Causing to Stumble 6“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. The Parable of the Wandering Sheep 10“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. [11] a 12“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

 

[Cougarbear]

Prophets like Julie Greene?

I don’t know Julie Green. Nor does it matter. You are a doubter like most who don’t believe in God nor follow the Bible. And once again you dodge the questions. This makes you look stupid and no one takes you seriously. Except others with the same thoughts.

 

[forkintheroad7]

No, not with children.

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Matthew 18 ►

​

New International Version Par ▾ 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

children are innocent and humble

That does not mean they have no original sin. Humans are VERY fallen creatures. It's just that children don't know how to behave, how to think of others, etc.. until they are TAUGHT.

No one is born knowing how to navigate this evil, fallen world... And even adults don't know how, as we can see (DC, etc)

So yeh, children are also teachable. Adults... please. They do things for "political" reasons or simply to benefit Numero Uno

 

[Ace Nova]

In my humble opinion:

The crucifixion can represent the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ - the giving of his body and the shedding of his blood for our sake. While still on the cross - "He is a ransom for many" - giving mankind the opportunity to prove him right and his accusers (condemnation) wrong. How do we do that? By following his way by loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls, with all our minds and with all our strength. Then put his teachings into practice - loving one another, not judging one another, forgiving so we can be forgiven, helping the less fortunate, being advocates for the weak, seeking justice for the persecuted, - living a pious life - showing mercy and humbling ourselves before God and others.

This Glorifies God through the ministry of Jesus Christ - which will be a testimony for Christ - showing that he was unjustly condemned and put to death - which makes his accusers guilty of condemning an innocent man - according to the Law. (If we show that Jesus' way is our path to salvation - it validates his ministry and therefore cannot be convicted of blasphemy)

Now his accusers will have two options:

- Live by the way of Christ - Forgiveness of sins - loving each other OR living according to their old laws- "Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth" which would condemn themselves to death - either way - Christ (His way) would be justified - the only question would be whether it would be justified for all (If his accusers refuse to repent, follow his way, they condemn themselves and by their own law and only his followers would gain justice through Christ - if they repent on the other hand, they will open the way of Christ up for all - followers and accusers alike),

- An empty cross could signify a few things - it is completed, Christ is risen and is now drinking from the vine with all those that chose his path to salvation - "He did not come to condemn the world but to save it through him"

- Or it could mean there is no longer a ransom for those that did not choose his path for salvation - He is risen but the ones that remain would be subject to judgement and left to their own devices. This doesn't necessarily mean they are condemned - it just means they will need to follow a different path to salvation - confess, repent - make amends - if God is willing to spare entire cities for ONE good person - you certainly should trust that he will spare you if your actions/works and faith reflect what is pleasing to God. (If they are already spiritually righteous - there's a good chance that they are already favored by God)

Keep in mind - I am speaking in an eternal and individual sense. The story of Jesus Christ has been written for 2000 years - he suffered death, was buried and on the third day he rose again. Now it's up to you to see if he suffered death for you - if he conquered death for you and if he rose again for you.

Some who may think they are saved through Christ may not be "Some will say they testified for me, followed my way - but I will not recognize them and say, "Away from me!" - while others who had no idea (did not know him) will be saved through Christ.

Lastly - Jesus said in Mark 2:16

Some scribes who were Pharisees noticed that Jesus was eating with sinners and tax collectors, and they asked his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” When Jesus overheard this remark, he said, “It is not the healthy who need a physician, but rather those who are sick. I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.”

 

[forkintheroad7]

- Or it could mean there is no longer a ransom for those that did not choose his path for salvation - He is risen but the ones that remain would be subject to judgement and left to their own devices. This doesn't necessarily mean they are condemned - it just means they will need to follow a different path to salvation - confess, repent - make amends - if God is willing to spare entire cities for ONE good person - you certainly should trust that he will spare you if your actions/works and faith reflect what is pleasing to God. (If they are already spiritually righteous - there's a good chance that they are already favored by God)

I was following you until I got to this point. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee or something (?)