Zone1 I need to clarify my views on the Novus Ordo sect v the Sedevacantist (both claim to be Catholic)

[Meriweather]

That just raises the question for me, whether there is such a thing as a true Christian?

It is fair to keep in mind your true Christian is one who believes in Christ--s/he is not Christ, but we do try to emulate him and follow his teachings to the best of our ability.

An analogy: One bad day at school or one bad student, does not make all days bad or all students bad. It doesn't even make that one student bad all the time. I am fairly certain you would agree that the bashing of all school days and all students over the past sixty years would unfairly stigmatize schools and students. Ask yourself, if the percentage of bad school days and bad students rose to around 1% over the past sixty years, would it now be fair to raise the hue and cry about bad schools and bad students?

I am almost certain you agree that stigmatizing all because of the one percent is not only unfair, it is not even logical. So why is it fair and logical to stigmatize all priests and all Catholics?

 

[Donald H]

It is fair to keep in mind your true Christian is one who believes in Christ--s/he is not Christ, but we do try to emulate him and follow his teachings to the best of our ability.

An analogy: One bad day at school or one bad student, does not make all days bad or all students bad. It doesn't even make that one student bad all the time. I am fairly certain you would agree that the bashing of all school days and all students over the past sixty years would unfairly stigmatize schools and students. Ask yourself, if the percentage of bad school days and bad students rose to around 1% over the past sixty years, would it now be fair to raise the hue and cry about bad schools and bad students?

I am almost certain you agree that stigmatizing all because of the one percent is not only unfair, it is not even logical. So why is it fair and logical to stigmatize all priests and all Catholics?

It's not fair to stigmatize all priests. It's fair to condemn pedophiles and Catholic priests have gained a reputation of there be an abnormally high incidence of pedophilia amongst them.
I believe that the conditions of celibacy forced on priests by the church is abnormal for most men and therefore they are finding an outlet for their sexual frustration in children.

And I think my feelings on the matter as I've expressed here, are the opposite of, and contrary to the point Ding is trying to make. That is, the same point I hear you trying to make on the frequency of the abuses of children being only neglibible.

 

[Meriweather]

Catholics can do as they please with their sins.

For me, no sins come to mind at the moment. I'm living my life and doing what I consider to be moral and just. If I wasn't then I would change my behaviour.

Whenever you, or I, or anyone slips up, we forgive ourselves and move on--because we know, we are certain, that the totality of who we are is not affected by our blunders. We know we have it in ourselves to do better, and that next time we will do better.

That is what Catholicism is all about. We look for the grace of God and thankfully embrace it to move past our transgressions and become the person we are meant to be, the person we know we can be. We also know that everyone else we meet on our journey through life has that same hope/expectation for themselves.

 

[notmyfault2020]

. It's fair to condemn pedophiles and Catholic priests have gained a reputation of there be an abnormally high incidence of pedophilia amongst them.

This from someone who will not admit he is a sinner

I need not read any further in your Christian-bashing tirades

 

[Meriweather]

It's not fair to stigmatize all priests. It's fair to condemn pedophiles and Catholic priests have gained a reputation of there be an abnormally high incidence of pedophilia amongst them.

And here you are in error. There is a lower percentage in the Catholic priesthood than there is in other professions. Who has the highest percentage? Families. As part of the news media at that time, we knew there was a greater percentage of pedophilia (and moving teachers around) in our schools than ever occurred in the Catholic priesthood. The psychiatric community held their seminars to "cure" priests and teachers alike and then had their superiors move them so they could start fresh.

I was dismayed by the unfairness of all this--but the one thing I (and other Catholics) were adamant about. Doesn't matter if we did have the lower percentage--our percentage should have been ZERO.

I learned early one, when the news media shines a bright light somewhere, it is often to keep truth in the dark. Scandals in public schools would not increase advertising revenue, and would likely decrease it. Scandal in the Catholic Church? $$$$

Mostly because of the way the news media was insisting on telling the story, I did not further my career in journalism. I truly believe this to be as great a scandal. We truly are a fallen race.

I understand that a family member was hurt during this time, and for you and for others, it is little comfort to know that they fell through the cracks. It is still betrayal of the highest degree.

 

[Donald H]

Whenever you, or I, or anyone slips up, we forgive ourselves and move on--because we know, we are certain, that the totality of who we are is not affected by our blunders. We know we have it in ourselves to do better, and that next time we will do better.

That's a great explanation of the point I've tried to make with 'not my fault'. And further, there is no point to dwell on supposed sins when my free will dictates my behaviour.

That is what Catholicism is all about. We look for the grace of God and thankfully embrace it to move past our transgressions and become the person we are meant to be, the person we know we can be. We also know that everyone else we meet on our journey through life has that same hope/expectation for themselves.

I have the same hope and expectations as you, but I don't include a god as having any influence on me, and is no part of it for me.

Can you accept that basically, an atheist is as morally sound as a Christian? Do you accept that my morality doesn't come from believing? I think you consistently stand above the other Christians on this board. I've asked you to comment on my morality, to put you to the test.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of being condemned by Christians of 'not my faults' ilk!

My sin is my temptation to strike back in kind!

 

[Donald H]

And here you are in error. There is a lower percentage in the Catholic priesthood than there is in other professions. Who has the highest percentage? Families. As part of the news media at that time, we knew there was a greater percentage of pedophilia (and moving teachers around) in our schools than ever occurred in the Catholic priesthood. The psychiatric community held their seminars to "cure" priests and teachers alike and then had their superiors move them so they could start fresh.

I was dismayed by the unfairness of all this--but the one thing I (and other Catholics) were adamant about. Doesn't matter if we did have the lower percentage--our percentage should have been ZERO.

I learned early one, when the news media shines a bright light somewhere, it is often to keep truth in the dark. Scandals in public schools would not increase advertising revenue, and would likely decrease it. Scandal in the Catholic Church? $$$$

Mostly because of the way the news media was insisting on telling the story, I did not further my career in journalism. I truly believe this to be as great a scandal. We truly are a fallen race.

I understand that a family member was hurt during this time, and for you and for others, it is little comfort to know that they fell through the cracks. It is still betrayal of the highest degree.

Are you taking into account the catholic priests who aren't caught, arrested, and thrown in jail for their crimes against children? Are you taking into account society granting priests immunity? Are you taking into account your pope's spiriting away priests who have been guilty, to obscure locations?

The incidence of pedophilia among Catholic priests is abnormally high compared to most other occupations. Note that I said 'most', because I don't have statistics for all.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I can't believe Meriweather or anyone else bothers talking to someone who obviously does NOT want to hear about Christian ethics/morals..

I mean, I myself say it's a waste of time.. guess I could be wrong

but why do I doubt it?

I mean, the Donald (not Trump!) does not listen.. just wants to defy Christians (is what I'm thinking)

 

[Donald H]

I can't believe Meriweather or anyone else bothers talking to someone who obviously does NOT want to hear about Christian ethics/morals..

I mean, I myself say it's a waste of time.. guess I could be wrong

but why do I doubt it?

I mean, the Donald (not Trump!) does not listen.. just wants to defy Christians (is what I'm thinking)

Are your personal attacks against others a Christian trait?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Are your personal attacks against others a Christian trait?

I'm not aware of any attacks. Too bad you take Truth telling as an attack, apparently

 

[Meriweather]

I have the same hope and expectations as you, but I don't include a god as having any influence on me, and is no part of it for me.

Can you accept that basically, an atheist is as morally sound as a Christian? Do you accept that my morality doesn't come from believing? I think you consistently stand above the other Christians on this board. I've asked you to comment on my morality, to put you to the test.

You may not recall, but growing up, my grandfather and an uncle were atheists. I married an atheist from a mostly atheist family. My grandfather was a repairman who barely charged the poor; he knew paying the standard rate would be too much of hardship for them. My uncle, such a gentle, caring person. And my husband...I would sing his praises, but somehow he would know and begin blushing.

In so many cases, morality is unaffected by belief or not believing. Not believing is often not a choice, although my family members now have a slightly different take on that. They know how hard I work on my faith and my relationship with God. Some know of my experiences.

What several have come to realize is that the choice they made was to journey through this life with a can do, I'd rather do it on my own, philosophy than to have God's help along the way. From atheist they went to agnostic.

As for me, I needed God's help along the way, and I sometimes shudder where I would be had I not sought and was given it. It's not that I would have become immoral, it's more like I would have missed so many blessings along the way. 'My' atheists in troubled times have come to me for help. Every single time, afterwards, they have told me it really helped--but still, it just might have been coincidental. I smile and give them a hug.

Every person of faith should have an atheist in his/her life--and every atheist should have a person of faith in his/her life.

So, yes, atheists (generally speaking as always) are as morally sound as people of faith. It is not morals they miss out on, it's God they miss.

 

[Meriweather]

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of being condemned by Christians

They don't know you.

My sin is my temptation to strike back in kind!

We all fight that temptation to strike back. Besides morality, it something else most of us have in common.

 

[Donald H]

You may not recall, but growing up, my grandfather and an uncle were atheists. I married an atheist from a mostly atheist family. My grandfather was a repairman who barely charged the poor; he knew paying the standard rate would be too much of hardship for them. My uncle, such a gentle, caring person. And my husband...I would sing his praises, but somehow he would know and begin blushing.

In so many cases, morality is unaffected by belief or not believing. Not believing is often not a choice, although my family members now have a slightly different take on that. They know how hard I work on my faith and my relationship with God. Some know of my experiences.

What several have come to realize is that the choice they made was to journey through this life with a can do, I'd rather do it on my own, philosophy than to have God's help along the way. From atheist they went to agnostic.

As for me, I needed God's help along the way, and I sometimes shudder where I would be had I not sought and was given it. It's not that I would have become immoral, it's more like I would have missed so many blessings along the way. 'My' atheists in troubled times have come to me for help. Every single time, afterwards, they have told me it really helped--but still, it just might have been coincidental. I smile and give them a hug.

Every person of faith should have an atheist in his/her life--and every atheist should have a person of faith in his/her life.

So, yes, atheists (generally speaking as always) are as morally sound as people of faith. It is not morals they miss out on, it's God they miss.

Thank you for your answer.

I don't believe I'm missing out on a god. On the contrary, I believe I'm freer with no god and I can expand on that when asked. I don't think this is the time and place to do it.

I think my behaviour on this forum speaks adequately for my credibility and reputation.

 

[Donald H]

They don't know you.

We all fight that temptation to strike back. Besides morality, it something else most of us have in common.

Yes, but I haven't succumbed to the temptation. And in fairness, you seldom do yourself.

 

[Meriweather]

The incidence of pedophilia among Catholic priests is abnormally high compared to most other occupations. Note that I said 'most', because I don't have statistics for all.

I have gone through and studied these statistics, and I mean studied since the 1970s when the story broke. In fact, pedophilia among Catholic priests is very low and always has been. Watch for caveats that try to make the numbers mean more than they do. For example, look for the area the statistics cover. (For example, priests world-wide as compared to another profession where they use a single country only.) The media is outstanding when it comes to making numbers lie. As I said earlier, "low numbers" aren't much comfort for Catholics who don't want low numbers, but want ZERO.

In that way, I am glad the news media picked Catholic priests to highlight. The Church and its members went to work to insure it can't happen in their parish. That being said, there was great anger among both bishops and the laity that some Catholic archdioceses were slow to take all this seriously. We are not a perfect people, but nor are we a 'do nothing' people.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't believe I'm missing out on a god. On the contrary, I believe I'm freer with no god and I can expand on that when asked. I don't think this is the time and place to do it.

Just wait until you meet God! I love the parable of the workers in the vineyard, where some workers are there at dawn, where others aren't there until practically the last minute. All receive the same wage. The difference? We early workers got to know and be around the vineyard owner the entire time! Well worth it, in fact I would call it a bonus.

People can survive without bonuses, but they are still wonderful to have.

 

[Donald H]

Just wait until you meet God!

Your failure to accept me as I am is becoming insulting.
I consider myself to be freer without believing in a god. That has nothing to do with me judging your beliefs.

I abhor missionaries trying to convert others to accepting their beliefs. The Catholic position on birth control on the African continent says all that needs to be said on that.

And it also says something about my freedom!

 

[Meriweather]

Your failure to accept me as I am is becoming insulting.

You fail to see I one hundred percent accept you as you are. And always have.

I didn't realize you found it insulting that I see very good times ahead for you.

 

[Meriweather]

I abhor missionaries trying to convert others to accepting their beliefs.

Are you saying you abhor me? Or do you wrongly think I am trying to convert you?

Here is what I see: Two people sharing their different perspectives. I am sorry my perspective is so abhorrent to you. As my perspective is all I have, I won't bother you with it anymore.

 

[Donald H]

You fail to see I one hundred percent accept you as you are. And always have.

I didn't realize you found it insulting that I see very good times ahead for you.

I actually 'get' what you're saying and I think I've heard enough for now. My terms are not negotiable and you need to accept that!