Zone1 I need to clarify my views on the Novus Ordo sect v the Sedevacantist (both claim to be Catholic)

[notmyfault2020]

I am a sedevacantist, which means I believe (know) that the Vatican is NOT the true Catholic religion. I do not just suspect this or merely believe it, I KNOW it (unless some credible old-school theologian comes up with information that credibly refutes my position, but that has not happened. Instead, I only find more and more information as the days go by to substantiate my sedevacantist position. And the fake pope Francis is objectively a heretic).

but that does not mean I believe that the novus ordo sect is all bad. No, there are plenty of sincere, truly Catholic priests in the novus ordo sect. They may not have studied all the information I myself have studied... I don't know what is going on with even one or 2 of them, much less all of them. All I know w/ certainty is that I have found some very good priests there.

The problem... I mean one of the problems is that there are so many priests who are NOT so great... Why do I feel that 2 words suffice (?): pedophile cover-up. But it goes WAY beyond those 2 words (I have my own stories of bad priests... none of whom were pedophiles, that I know of...)

In any case, this is where I am at:

I know that what I experienced while in the novus ordo sect for so many years was real. The Real Presence of Jesus Christ (Transubstantiation) was (is?) there. No one will ever convince me otherwise. However, I do believe that the Real Presence is being withdrawn from the NO sect, and we will no longer be able to say in the future that the Real Presence of Christ is still there. I feel some of the NO churches (but there is only ONE Church) have already completely lost the Real Presence... an extremely troubling thing, to say the least. I do not feel all of them have, but then again... I don't have time to travel the whole country much less the whole world trying to discern the RP in this or that Church....

 

[Circe]

Now THIS is the right kind of thread for a Zone 1 discussion!!

 

[White 6]

I am a sedevacantist, which means I believe (know) that the Vatican is NOT the true Catholic religion. I do not just suspect this or merely believe it, I KNOW it (unless some credible theological comes up with information that credibly refutes my position, but that has not happened. Instead, I only find more and more information as the days go by to substantiate my sedevacantist position).

but that does not mean I believe that the novus ordo sect is all bad. No, there are plenty of sincere, truly Catholic priests in the novus ordo sect. They may not have studied all the information I myself have studied... I don't know what is going on with even one or 2 of them, much less all of them. All I know w/ certainty is that I have found some very good priests there.

The problem... I mean one of the problems is that there are so many priests who are NOT so great... Why do I feel that 2 words suffice (?): pedophile cover-up. But it goes WAY beyond those 2 words (I have my own stories of bad priests... none of whom were pedophiles, that I know of...)

In any case, this is where I am at:

I know that what I experienced while in the novus ordo sect for so many years was real. The Real Presence of Jesus Christ (Transubstantiation) was (is?) there. No one will ever convince me otherwise. However, I do believe that the Real Presence is being withdrawn from the NO sect, and we will no longer be able to say in the future that the Real Presence of Christ is still there. I feel some of the NO churches (but there is only ONE Church) have already completely lost the Real Presence... an extremely troubling thing, to say the least. I do not feel all of them have, but then again... I don't have time to travel the whole country much less the whole world trying to discern the RP in this or that Church....

Cool OP. Got to score you points, just on word power alone and expansion of my vocabulary, if not connected to my religious beliefs.

 

[Compost]

The real presence in the Eucharist is there regardless of whether or not the priest is imperfect. The Sacraments aren't rendered moot when the Mass was not a Latin Mass.

Do you believe in the Real Presence? That is your concern.

When you go for Adoration, do you quiz the other participants to be sure they believe properly? Of course not.

There have been bad Popes before. The Church Christ founded remains.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Now THIS is the right kind of thread for a Zone 1 discussion!!

why do u say that?

 

[notmyfault2020]

The real presence in the Eucharist is there regardless of whether or not the priest is imperfect. The Sacraments aren't rendered moot when the Mass was not a Latin Mass.

Do you believe in the Real Presence? That is your concern.

When you go for Adoration, do you quiz the other participants to be sure they believe properly? Of course not.

There have been bad Popes before. The Church Christ founded remains.

Do you presume that I don't know this: that bad popes have been with us before and etc....?

I have studied Catholicism.. I have read hundreds of books written by credible Catholics. I don't even see how you can ask me, after presumably reading my OP, whether I beleive in the Real Presence of Christ!

And no, the Real Presence is NOT in every Catholic Church anymore (in my experience), although I believe that it used to be. Again, if you had read the OP, which I doubt you did..

 

[Donald H]

I am a sedevacantist, which means I believe (know) that the Vatican is NOT the true Catholic religion. I do not just suspect this or merely believe it, I KNOW it (unless some credible old-school theologian comes up with information that credibly refutes my position, but that has not happened. Instead, I only find more and more information as the days go by to substantiate my sedevacantist position).

but that does not mean I believe that the novus ordo sect is all bad. No, there are plenty of sincere, truly Catholic priests in the novus ordo sect. They may not have studied all the information I myself have studied... I don't know what is going on with even one or 2 of them, much less all of them. All I know w/ certainty is that I have found some very good priests there.

The problem... I mean one of the problems is that there are so many priests who are NOT so great... Why do I feel that 2 words suffice (?): pedophile cover-up. But it goes WAY beyond those 2 words (I have my own stories of bad priests... none of whom were pedophiles, that I know of...)

In any case, this is where I am at:

I know that what I experienced while in the novus ordo sect for so many years was real. The Real Presence of Jesus Christ (Transubstantiation) was (is?) there. No one will ever convince me otherwise. However, I do believe that the Real Presence is being withdrawn from the NO sect, and we will no longer be able to say in the future that the Real Presence of Christ is still there. I feel some of the NO churches (but there is only ONE Church) have already completely lost the Real Presence... an extremely troubling thing, to say the least. I do not feel all of them have, but then again... I don't have time to travel the whole country much less the whole world trying to discern the RP in this or that Church....

What are the numbers of the two opposing sides? A per centage split?

Is this in fact a real splitting of Catholicism or is it an attempt by some Catholics to distance themselves from the perversions of the priests?

I think this is a topic that 'all' Catholics should want to bury quickly before it can gather any momentum. Considering that it hasn't already grown to be at least poking over the horizon?

Are you alone or are you in good company?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Cool OP. Got to score you points, just on word power alone and expansion of my vocabulary, if not connected to my religious beliefs.
View attachment 759737

That is not a totally accurate description of my OWN sedevacantism

which holds that NONE of the last popes from Roncalli aka John XXIII to Francis are real popes. The last real pope left us in 1958. .. Pius xii

 

[notmyfault2020]

What are the numbers of the two opposing sides? A per centage split?

Is this in fact a real splitting of Catholicism or is it an attempt by some Catholics to distance themselves from the perversions of the priests?

I think this is a topic that 'all' Catholics should want to bury quickly before it can gather any momentum. Considering that it hasn't already grown to be at least poking over the horizon?

Are you alone or are you in good company?

If I were the only one in the world who believed as I have stated here, I would continue believing --no, KNOWING--what I "believe"/know.

 

[ding]

Do you presume that I don't know this: that bad popes have been with us before and etc....?

I have studied Catholicism.. I have read hundreds of books written by credible Catholics. I don't even see how you can ask me, after presumably reading my OP, whether I beleive in the Real Presence of Christ!

And no, the Real Presence is NOT in every Catholic Church anymore (in my experience), although I believe that it used to be. Again, if you had read the OP, which I doubt you did..

It certainly sounds like you don't believe in it. It's literally the only reason to attend mass. You seem to think of it as an after thought. You can do every other thing outside the mass that you can do in the mass except for devouring the flesh of Christ and drinking the blood of Christ.

 

[Circe]

Cool OP. Got to score you points, just on word power alone and expansion of my vocabulary, if not connected to my religious beliefs.
View attachment 759737

Like in the 1300s! When the supposed Pope was in Avignon. (And there were a couple others in other places.) I am fascinated by how the Catholic Church persists in certain issues for CENTURIES, such as whether the church alone was responsible for dealing with churchmen who turned criminal. That was the issue with the Murder in the Cathedral in 1172 (Thomas a Becket) and may have finally been settled recently in the 2020s with the determination around the world that criminal church pedophiles should be reported and tried by civil authorities.

 

[Donald H]

Personally, I think that Ding and Meriweather stand out as Catholics whose opinions on this matter is called for, due to the respect they have gained on this board.

In comparison of course, to some who have lost respect for obvious reasons.

 

[Compost]

Do you presume that I don't know this: that bad popes have been with us before and etc....?

I have studied Catholicism.. I have read hundreds of books written by credible Catholics. I don't even see how you can ask me, after presumably reading my OP, whether I beleive in the Real Presence of Christ!

And no, the Real Presence is NOT in every Catholic Church anymore (in my experience), although I believe that it used to be. Again, if you had read the OP, which I doubt you did..

I read your OP. You did not explain how you have determined that the Real Presence is not in every Catholic Church anymore.

 

[ding]

Personally, I think that Ding and Meriweather stand out as Catholics whose opinions on this matter is called for, due to the respect they have gained on this board.

In comparison of course, to some who have lost respect for obvious reasons.

Stop it.

 

[Circe]

why do u say that?

Because it's not as "hot" (dare I say not as important?) as issues such as race, which IMO should not be Zone 1.

 

[ding]

Like in the 1300s! When the supposed Pope was in Avignon. (And there were a couple others in other places.) I am fascinated by how the Catholic Church persists in certain issues for CENTURIES, such as whether the church alone was responsible for dealing with churchmen who turned criminal. That was the issue with the Murder in the Cathedral in 1172 (Thomas a Becket) and may have finally been settled recently with the determination around the world that criminal church pedophiles should be reported and tried by civil authorities.

The members of the Church are the Body of Christ. As long as we exist, the Church exists. Any organization - by necessity - requires a hierarchy. The hierarchy of the organization - while some may see it as the face of the organization - is never and will never be the organization. The reality of it is the leadership or hierarchy of any organization exists to serve the members. In effect, they are supposed to be servants. The same can and should be said for government or any other voluntary organization.

 

[Donald H]

If I were the only one in the world who believed as I have stated here, I would continue believing --no, KNOWING--what I "believe"/know.

I wouldn't suggest that you are virtually alone, but I'm at least asking you if there's an appreciable size element in the flock that feels the same way?

I can only guess that there would have to be some unrest with those who can't accept the practice of hiding pedophiles, as one example of just one of the pope's errant behaviours.

 

[notmyfault2020]

You can do every other thing outside the mass that you can do in the mass except for devouring the flesh of Christ and drinking the blood of Christ.

huh?

don't get it

 

[notmyfault2020]

The members of the Church are the Body of Christ. As long as we exist, the Church exists. Any organization - by necessity - requires a hierarchy. The hierarchy of the organization - while some may see it as the face of the organization - is never and will never be the organization. The reality of it is the leadership or hierarchy of any organization exists to serve the members. In effect, they are supposed to be servants. The same can and should be said for government or any other voluntary organization.

key words: supposed to

neither govt or what appears to be the Church (but isn't... namely the Vatican) are serving anyone but themselves these days

 

[ding]

I wouldn't suggest that you are virtually alone, but I'm at least asking you if there's an appreciable size element in the flock that feels the same way?

I can only guess that there would have to be some unrest with those who can't accept the practice of hiding pedophiles, as one example of just one of the pope's errant behaviours.

There's always been a "battle" between conservationism and liberalism within the Church. Always. Just like there has always been "battle" between conservationism and liberalism outside of the Church. Always. And there always will be a "battle" between conservationism and liberalism. It's healthy. It's natural.

But to answer your question people like the OP are a small minority of the conservatives in the Church. I'm as conservative as they come but they do not represent me. I'm so conservative I won't tolerate other conservatives making conservatives look bad.