I don't really understand the Dems' "need," for lack of a better word, for a national $15 min wage.

[Shelzin]

I have NO desire to argue in circles. The way to do that is shut off the billions getting pored into the markets. It's not going to happen. I posted a link where the Fed argues they aren't about to stop.

Edit: I tell what... If you promoted that every state had to increase by 50% it's minimum wage over a period of time... THAT would actually make some sense. Because then you aren't destroying every micro state economy that doesn't already have a $15 minimum wage.

Fair?

 

[Shelzin]

I have NO desire to argue in circles. The way to do that is shut off the billions getting pored into the markets. It's not going to happen. I posted a link where the Fed argues they aren't about to stop.

Well.. Yeah... You want to take a KNOWN problem you don't like, and make it worse by doing the exact same thing another way. That makes all kinds of logical sense man.

 

[pknopp]

I have NO desire to argue in circles. The way to do that is shut off the billions getting pored into the markets. It's not going to happen. I posted a link where the Fed argues they aren't about to stop.

Edit: I tell what... If you promoted that every state had to increase by 50% it's minimum wage over a period of time... THAT would actually make some sense. Because then you aren't destroying every micro state economy that doesn't already have a $15 minimum wage.

Fair?

I'm not concerned over how it's done. I really want to see it all fall apart.

 

[Andylusion]

You say it's worse, I say it isn't,

I explained what would happen and why... You say that wouldn't be worse. We disagree. Again... if you give me an "oh shit moment" I didn't think of that. I'll thank you.

Minimum wages have been raised ever since there has been one. You are arguing that the working poor should fall further and further behind.

If companies still want to offshore and we want to do nothing about that, I'll be voting for those who promise a guaranteed income.



(Bloomberg) -- The U.S. central bank should not prematurely withdraw pandemic support for the U.S. economy just because some people are getting rich in the stock market, said San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank President Mary Daly.

“We’re building this bridge, which is barely having many communities hang on, and the stock market is running pretty good and many people who already have money are getting more money,” she said Friday during a virtual discussion hosted by the Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Fed’s Daly Pushes Back Against Pulling Policy Aid to Curb Stocks

But the working poor shouldn't get anything. Screw that.

Minimum wages have been raised ever since there has been one. You are arguing that the working poor should fall further and further behind.

No that is a stupid claim. Absolutely stupid.

What makes the working poor fall further behind, is you jacking up the cost of labor, so they end up unemployed, and can't find a job.

You are the one who wants the working poor to be out of work, and fall further behind.

Every single time they raise the minimum wage, people lose their jobs. No exception.

As long as people like you, do not force people out of jobs with your idiotic policies, people can advance up the income ladder.

No one anywhere wants people to stay poor.

The difference is, we believe the solution to being poor, and people moving themselves up the income ladder.

You believe that people are incapable of doing that, because you are smug arrogant jerks... so you think you need government to fix the lives of other people.

But that never works. What works, is people working their way up. Not sitting around waiting for your fake savior government, to somehow make a law saying your life is better.

Did that work for Greece? They had a minimum wage indexed to inflation. Unemployment got so bad, that they CUT the minimum wage, and what a shock.... unemployed fell, as employers were able to higher people. Crazy how that works.

Almost like we on the right wing have predicted that for almost a hundred years.

 

[Shelzin]

I'm not concerned over how it's done. I really want to see it all fall apart.

See what fall apart?

And... Doing it that way would actually be constructive if done right. It would have to be over several years, but it could be done with minimal harm to local economies.

 

[pknopp]

You say it's worse, I say it isn't,

I explained what would happen and why... You say that wouldn't be worse. We disagree. Again... if you give me an "oh shit moment" I didn't think of that. I'll thank you.

Minimum wages have been raised ever since there has been one. You are arguing that the working poor should fall further and further behind.

If companies still want to offshore and we want to do nothing about that, I'll be voting for those who promise a guaranteed income.



(Bloomberg) -- The U.S. central bank should not prematurely withdraw pandemic support for the U.S. economy just because some people are getting rich in the stock market, said San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank President Mary Daly.

“We’re building this bridge, which is barely having many communities hang on, and the stock market is running pretty good and many people who already have money are getting more money,” she said Friday during a virtual discussion hosted by the Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Fed’s Daly Pushes Back Against Pulling Policy Aid to Curb Stocks

But the working poor shouldn't get anything. Screw that.

Minimum wages have been raised ever since there has been one. You are arguing that the working poor should fall further and further behind.

No that is a stupid claim. Absolutely stupid.

What makes the working poor fall further behind, is you jacking up the cost of labor, so they end up unemployed, and can't find a job.

You are the one who wants the working poor to be out of work, and fall further behind.

Every single time they raise the minimum wage, people lose their jobs. No exception.

As long as people like you, do not force people out of jobs with your idiotic policies, people can advance up the income ladder.

No one anywhere wants people to stay poor.

The difference is, we believe the solution to being poor, and people moving themselves up the income ladder.

You believe that people are incapable of doing that, because you are smug arrogant jerks... so you think you need government to fix the lives of other people.

But that never works. What works, is people working their way up. Not sitting around waiting for your fake savior government, to somehow make a law saying your life is better.

Did that work for Greece? They had a minimum wage indexed to inflation. Unemployment got so bad, that they CUT the minimum wage, and what a shock.... unemployed fell, as employers were able to higher people. Crazy how that works.

Almost like we on the right wing have predicted that for almost a hundred years.

Circles. We have already covered this. When they are out of jobs you will pay them a living wage for not working.

 

[pknopp]

I'm not concerned over how it's done. I really want to see it all fall apart.

See what fall apart?

And... Doing it that way would actually be constructive if done right. It would have to be over several years, but it could be done with minimal harm to local economies.

A $15 minimum wage isn't going to kick in all at once.

 

[jknowgood]

Byrd Rule, politics threaten $15 per hour minimum wage

Democrats face a series of steep political and procedural challenges as they plot a path to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour using a budgetary process known as reconciliation that would sides…

thehill.com

I don't doubt or disagree with NYC or other urban areas, esp progressive ones, logically wanting the raise. Or the need of workers. But in rural states, min wage jobs sometimes just supplement rural life of raising and growing one's own food. It will kill jobs, because the people who buy retail goods are the same ones working the jobs. Employers will consolidate gas stations, small grocery's and maybe even Wal-Marts. It just seems typical leftwing elitism to think places like Ala and Miss and WV can't figure out their own state economies.

The Democrats want to raise the minimum wage to the point where employers will choose to automate their businesses, reduce staff, or eliminate low-wage workers altogether. We're already seeing this in the fast food and hospitality industries.

The Democrats' goal is, of course, to drive low-wage workers to unemployment and then onto welfare, where they can be more easily controlled. If the government is paying for your food rather than your employer, wouldn't you be more "willing" to go along with things like mandatory vaccines, only "approved" content on your social media, not questioning what your kids are being taught in school, etc.?

The government paying for our food,

Trump's Road to Socialism | Tho Bishop

So corporate farms can get billions but working stiffs shouldn't be able to make enough to survive on?

Some companies will be able to afford $15 an hour MW and still be profitable. Most cannot and will either invest in automation, reduce staff, or hire illegals to survive. Many will go bankrupt.

Maybe that's why Biden is going to flood our borders with Illegals again.

Just wait until those already here get the right to vote.

You're the problem with this country.

 

[Shelzin]

A $15 minimum wage isn't going to kick in all at once.

Doesn't matter... For California there is essentially no change. For Iowa, it's fucking catastrophic. And frankly California is NOT something I want to emulate.

The 6th largest economy in the world doesn't have the resources to pay off it's debt because they have no clue how to manage money. So... What to do? Fuck everyone else to get out of debt. Oh hell no.

Edit: Or ... Do you not care about California's poor people? They would get a wage increase as well under what I propose.

 

[pknopp]

Byrd Rule, politics threaten $15 per hour minimum wage

Democrats face a series of steep political and procedural challenges as they plot a path to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour using a budgetary process known as reconciliation that would sides…

thehill.com

I don't doubt or disagree with NYC or other urban areas, esp progressive ones, logically wanting the raise. Or the need of workers. But in rural states, min wage jobs sometimes just supplement rural life of raising and growing one's own food. It will kill jobs, because the people who buy retail goods are the same ones working the jobs. Employers will consolidate gas stations, small grocery's and maybe even Wal-Marts. It just seems typical leftwing elitism to think places like Ala and Miss and WV can't figure out their own state economies.

The Democrats want to raise the minimum wage to the point where employers will choose to automate their businesses, reduce staff, or eliminate low-wage workers altogether. We're already seeing this in the fast food and hospitality industries.

The Democrats' goal is, of course, to drive low-wage workers to unemployment and then onto welfare, where they can be more easily controlled. If the government is paying for your food rather than your employer, wouldn't you be more "willing" to go along with things like mandatory vaccines, only "approved" content on your social media, not questioning what your kids are being taught in school, etc.?

The government paying for our food,

Trump's Road to Socialism | Tho Bishop

So corporate farms can get billions but working stiffs shouldn't be able to make enough to survive on?

Some companies will be able to afford $15 an hour MW and still be profitable. Most cannot and will either invest in automation, reduce staff, or hire illegals to survive. Many will go bankrupt.

Maybe that's why Biden is going to flood our borders with Illegals again.

Just wait until those already here get the right to vote.

You're the problem with this country.

It's not about me.

 

[pknopp]

A $15 minimum wage isn't going to kick in all at once.

Doesn't matter... For California there is essentially no change. For Iowa, it's fucking catastrophic. And frankly California is NOT something I want to emulate.

The 6th largest economy in the world doesn't have the resources to pay off it's debt because they have no clue how to manage money. So... What to do? Fuck everyone else to get out of debt. Oh hell no.

Too bad. You understand the real problem and understand we are going to do nothing about it. I'm going to support anything that screws that up.

 

[jknowgood]

Byrd Rule, politics threaten $15 per hour minimum wage

Democrats face a series of steep political and procedural challenges as they plot a path to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour using a budgetary process known as reconciliation that would sides…

thehill.com

I don't doubt or disagree with NYC or other urban areas, esp progressive ones, logically wanting the raise. Or the need of workers. But in rural states, min wage jobs sometimes just supplement rural life of raising and growing one's own food. It will kill jobs, because the people who buy retail goods are the same ones working the jobs. Employers will consolidate gas stations, small grocery's and maybe even Wal-Marts. It just seems typical leftwing elitism to think places like Ala and Miss and WV can't figure out their own state economies.

The Democrats want to raise the minimum wage to the point where employers will choose to automate their businesses, reduce staff, or eliminate low-wage workers altogether. We're already seeing this in the fast food and hospitality industries.

The Democrats' goal is, of course, to drive low-wage workers to unemployment and then onto welfare, where they can be more easily controlled. If the government is paying for your food rather than your employer, wouldn't you be more "willing" to go along with things like mandatory vaccines, only "approved" content on your social media, not questioning what your kids are being taught in school, etc.?

The government paying for our food,

Trump's Road to Socialism | Tho Bishop

So corporate farms can get billions but working stiffs shouldn't be able to make enough to survive on?

Some companies will be able to afford $15 an hour MW and still be profitable. Most cannot and will either invest in automation, reduce staff, or hire illegals to survive. Many will go bankrupt.

Maybe that's why Biden is going to flood our borders with Illegals again.

Just wait until those already here get the right to vote.

You're the problem with this country.

It's not about me.

Yes it is, if you over double the minimum wage, everything in price goes up. But liberals are too stupid to realize it.

 

[Markle]

Minimum wages have been raised ever since there has been one. You are arguing that the working poor should fall further and further behind.

If companies still want to offshore and we want to do nothing about that, I'll be voting for those who promise a guaranteed income.

Please show us specifically what would happen to our economy with a Federal increase in the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour. How would that change affect the citizens of New York City which has a cost of living index of 100 and that of Jacksonville, FL which has a cost of living index of 74.57, and Cinncinatti, OH which has an index of 61.64.

If you cannot or will not show your work, your reliable source, and working link, we will know that you have not a clue and are simply parroting what your far-left liberal sources tell you to say.

You have no clue.

America: Cost of Living Index by City 2020

www.numbeo.com

Who will pay for a guaranteed income and why? Where has it been tried and how is it working out?

 

[Shelzin]

Too bad. You understand the real problem and understand we are going to do nothing about it. I'm going to support anything that screws that up.

If you supported something that screws that up... You would be supporting what I just suggested about state percentage increases over a straight $15 minimum wage.

You just essentially said you want to watch the world burn. Which must mean you are incredibly lonely. Are there really no people on earth that you want to better it for? No children at all, not even nieces or nephews?

*ponders*

Are you ok?

 

[pknopp]

Minimum wages have been raised ever since there has been one. You are arguing that the working poor should fall further and further behind.

If companies still want to offshore and we want to do nothing about that, I'll be voting for those who promise a guaranteed income.

Please show us specifically what would happen to our economy with a Federal increase in the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour. How would that change affect the citizens of New York City which has a cost of living index of 100 and that of Jacksonville, FL which has a cost of living index of 74.57, and Cinncinatti, OH which has an index of 61.64.

If you cannot or will not show your work, your reliable source, and working link, we will know that you have not a clue and are simply parroting what your far-left liberal sources tell you to say.

You have no clue.

America: Cost of Living Index by City 2020

www.numbeo.com

I don't have to show you squat. It has NOTHING to do with my position.

 

[pknopp]

Too bad. You understand the real problem and understand we are going to do nothing about it. I'm going to support anything that screws that up.

If you supported something that screws that up... You would be supporting what I just suggested about state percentage increases over a straight $15 minimum wage.

You just essentially said you want to watch the world burn. Which must mean you are incredibly lonely. Are there really no people on earth that you want to better it for? No children at all, not even nieces or nephews?

*ponders*

Are you ok?

Yes, I want to see it all fall apart. I'll note again, you know the problem and admit we will never address it. With that being the case, yes, I want to see it all burn down.

 

[Andylusion]

Company's move from country to country looking for those who will work for less money. That is how you build more profit, Most stuff is now made or grown in other country's. The American wage problem, IS an increase the only or best solution? why haven't we increased it a little every few years so business had time to adjust? or would it have mattered? where did this idea that those who start working for mim wage & get pay increases based on time with the company & doing good work that those jobs are s- - t & people doing them are stupid or some other negative you choice to label them. fact is not every one cares about getting rich, many people just want to do a days work go home & leave the job behind. And you used to be able to house & feed on those wages, what happened? I have way more questions than answers.

That's partially true. So I worked at a company that outsourced to China. I was there, talking with the executives, when this issue came up.

The reason they outsourced to China was not as simple as "We make X profit here, and we'll make more profit there".

It was not a decision between we'll only make $50 Billion here, and if we outsource to there, we'll make $100 Billion.

Instead it was choice of "We'll make no profit if we make it here. We'll make a profit, if we make it there.".

The bottom line was, we could not produce the product in the US, and make any profit. It was either outsource and make profits from the outsourcing... or.... not make the product at all.

And that is the reason most companies outsource.

Outsourcing generally speaking, sucks. It sucks. You have to deal with logistics. You have to deal with lost product. You have to deal with language issues. You have to deal with translations of the instruction issues.

And then you have to deal with the fact that every time something goes wrong, it's a long long time to fix it.

At my company we had a particular part that was imported. It was 3 months to get the part. When we finally got the part, we found they had made a critical error, rendering the part useless. So we had to ship it back. 3 month later, we heard from them that they investigated our claims, and determined the error. Then it was another 3 months to have them ship the correct parts back. So as you can see, that was nearly 9 months of waiting for a single part.

Every company would much rather use domestic sourcing. The problem is... you would go broke. It is simply too expensive to make stuff here many times.

It's not a matter of small profit or big profit... is a matter of bankruptcy or profit.

If you doubt that, look at American Apparel. Here was a company that was created, and built on the idea that they would only produce clothing domestically, and avoid 3rd world sweat shops.

And they did. They had factories producing clothing in the US. For about 10 years or so. Then they started losing money. Eventually they went bankrupt, and all the domestic factories were sold off. Today all "American Apparel" clothing, is actually made in third world countries.

In fact, even when they were making clothing domestically, it really wasn't all that honest... because a 2008 report showed that something like 1/3rd of all their work force were illegal immigrants, and most of the rest were immigrants.

So... you see my point? People get this idea that companies are sitting around trying to find some place they can pay people 25¢ less, to make a larger profit. No, if they are planning to outsource, it's because it's either outsource, or out of business.

 

[MarathonMike]

A $15 minimum wage isn't going to kick in all at once.

I thought you said it was a good thing, why wouldn't you want it to kick in all at once?

 

[pknopp]

Company's move from country to country looking for those who will work for less money. That is how you build more profit, Most stuff is now made or grown in other country's. The American wage problem, IS an increase the only or best solution? why haven't we increased it a little every few years so business had time to adjust? or would it have mattered? where did this idea that those who start working for mim wage & get pay increases based on time with the company & doing good work that those jobs are s- - t & people doing them are stupid or some other negative you choice to label them. fact is not every one cares about getting rich, many people just want to do a days work go home & leave the job behind. And you used to be able to house & feed on those wages, what happened? I have way more questions than answers.

That's partially true. So I worked at a company that outsourced to China. I was there, talking with the executives, when this issue came up.

The reason they outsourced to China was not as simple as "We make X profit here, and we'll make more profit there".

It was not a decision between we'll only make $50 Billion here, and if we outsource to there, we'll make $100 Billion.

Instead it was choice of "We'll make no profit if we make it here. We'll make a profit, if we make it there.".

The bottom line was, we could not produce the product in the US, and make any profit. It was either outsource and make profits from the outsourcing... or.... not make the product at all.

B.S.

I went shoe shopping with the wife. I'm checking out the tennis shoes. All made in Vietnam, Indonesia and China. Priced from $50-$90. There is NO WAY we couldn't manufacture shoes here paying people $15 an hour and not do it profitably at those prices.

 

[pknopp]

A $15 minimum wage isn't going to kick in all at once.

I thought you said it was a good thing, why wouldn't you want it to kick in all at once?

I'm simply stated what is. It's not about me. I'm not the one doing it.