Zone1 I am aware that I am stretching scripture: "Is it possible, even absent of belief, that a persons action on this planet can lead them to heaven"?

[ding]

I don't think so. Human nature is what it is.

I'm pretty sure Donald was making a thinly veiled insult about Christianity.

 

[ding]

If the truth can be 'rhetoric' as opposed to 'literal' interpretation of the bibles, then we have reached a common point on which we can agree.

And again, we are in agreement that the bibles are not the literal word of your god. Other Christians obviously don't agree but they are not the main representatives of the faith in the way you have become.

I have obviously accepted the 'embellishment' in the true sense of the word. I perceive it as the equivalent of lies being told out of necessity for the good of Christianity.

I would be interested in hearing how 'embellishment' served to make some specific case on the need for faith

I think you're really just saying that the church needed to embellish and lie to the flock on account of the flock lacking the sophistication to understand certain stories such as a man living in the belly of a big fish for three days. If so then that adds to the point that we are settled on the fact that science and creation can't be discussed in the same room where the contrasting beliefs will never lead to agreeing on pretty well anything to literally believe. I'm completely content and satisfied with that.

If I've missed your intent then let me know.

I'm beginning to detect that you are very much interested in expressing a contrary view to mine, but not for the sake of proving anything concerning your religious beliefs. Your objection to me telling you about car insurance has led to suspecting that motive.

What you intend for evil, God is using for good.

 

[Foxfyre]

What kind of doubts? I have doubts that I am a good person and worthy of his affection. But that is the extent of my doubts.

I doubt that our doubts differ much.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm pretty sure Donald was making a thinly veiled insult about Christianity.

Many Atheists do, either inadvertently or intentionally. I have Atheist friends who are very comfortable with Christianity and Christians and enjoy participating in many Christian activities such as pageants and concerts and potluck dinners and other such things. And some are curious and ask honest questions about how we can believe what we believe and can we defend what we believe. And some just can't seem to stand it that Christians are happy being Christians even to the point they try to shake the Christian's faith or even try to destroy their faith. I can't imagine being that mean spirited or sometimes even evil, but again, people are what they are.

 

[ding]

I doubt that our doubts differ much.

No offense intended but they do if you sometimes doubt the existence of God. I get why some people doubt it. I've heard every argument there is and everyone of them has a logical answer.

 

[ding]

Many Atheists do, either inadvertently or intentionally. I have Atheist friends who are very comfortable with Christianity and Christians and enjoy participating in many Christian activities such as pageants and concerts and potluck dinners and other such things. And some are curious and ask honest questions about how we can believe what we believe and can we defend what we believe. And some just can't seem to stand it that Christians are happy being Christians even to the point they try to shake the Christian's faith or even try to destroy their faith. I can't imagine being that mean spirited or sometimes even evil, but again, people are what they are.

Me too. I actually believe the ones trying to disparaging religion in general and Christianity particularly are a small minority. I have friends and close relatives and they aren't anything like these guys. So I agree with you 100%.

 

[Foxfyre]

No offense intended but they do if you sometimes doubt the existence of God. I get why some people doubt it. I've heard every argument there is and everyone of them has a logical answer.

I wasn't offended at all and had absolutely no thought you intended any offense. But the doubts sometimes sneak in, especially when our prayers seems to go unanswered or bad things happen to good people, etc. I try to reassure Christians not to obsess or even dwell long on these. They are usually fleeting and should not shake our faith at all.

 

[ding]

I wasn't offended at all and had absolutely no thought you intended any offense. But the doubts sometimes sneak in, especially when our prayers seems to go unanswered or bad things happen to good people, etc. I try to reassure Christians not to obsess or even dwell long on these. They are usually fleeting and should not shake our faith at all.

MLK said it best. God's power isn't put forth to achieve certain results. God's power is put forth to achieve certain results under certain conditions which affect changes in the lives of those experiencing it. When the Jews were defeated by Babylon, they didn't believe God wasn't powerful enough. They knew better. Instead they asked themselves what it was that God wanted them to learn. We are all being pruned by life. The pruning allows new growth to occur. It's like a forest fire. Forest fires clear out old growth so new growth can occur. I can look back at my life and see how everything I thought was bad actually shaped who I am today for the better. Sure it's painful to go through it at the time. But if we find something to be thankful for our attitude will turn and we can discover that there was something we learned such that something good came from it. It was for good reason that Jesus said blessed are those that mourn. In the case of extreme tragedy like losing a loved one, we mourn because we loved. We don't mourn things we don't love. So at a minimum it reminds us of that love and to not take our time with the others for granted. So that loss, if we allow it, can improve other relationships.

 

[ninja007]

Protestants believe in faith alone will get us to Heaven ... and that's different from Catholic teachings which say faith and works to get to Heaven ...

Meaning no one believes that works alone gets us to Heaven ... however, if you want to believe that, go ahead, at a minimum you'll stay out of prison, succeed in business, have a happy marriage, attentive children and maybe ... just maybe ... the house cat will respect you ...

Just don't call it Christian Heaven ... okay? ...

faith alone is the proper understanding; works dont get you to heaven at all.

 

[ninja007]

I as an atheist have nothing to examine. Ding and Meriweather, the two who appear to me to be the most devoted Christians on this board, have accepted the their bibles are not the literal word of the god, in many instances.

Darwinian evolution is accepted by the Catholic church and so that can be our starting point. The christian's task is to reconcile that with creation.

Only those two have at least advanced to that point of trying.

there is no such thing as an atheist. its not logical or correct. In order for athiesm to be true youd have to know that there is no God. Since you are a human, you cannot know.

 

[SweetSue92]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

No.

But since God is just, rewards in Heaven and punishments in Hell will also be just. IOW, those who did mostly good things on earth, but did not follow Jesus, will not suffer the same punishments as those who did outward harms.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Me too. I actually believe the ones trying to disparaging religion in general and Christianity particularly are a small minority. I have friends and close relatives and they aren't anything like these guys. So I agree with you 100%.

It often is because of their own lack of internal happiness. They are the Ebeneizer Scrooges of the world who focus on the pursuit of non-spiritual comforts and can't understand why trhers can have broader interests beyond consumption. They often hurt others for their own gain with glee so of course they view.religion with disdain it opposes all they embrace.

 

[hadit]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

I view hoping one's merit gets one into heaven somewhat like this:

Humanity lines up on the beach in California, desiring to swim to Hawaii, and people wade into the water. Some flounder and drown 100 feet from shore, some make it a mile into the ocean, and a few top swimmers get 50 miles into the ocean before they drown. No one, however, makes it to Hawaii.

Meanwhile, Jesus is standing by on a luxury cruise liner, literally begging people to trust Him, get on board and ride with Him to Hawaii.

 

[hadit]

no, that's according to Protestants, not Scripture

Are you saying then that there are those who will have eternal life in Christ are not part of the Church? Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

Those are not Protestant words, those are Christ's words. Do you deny Jesus' own words?

 

[hadit]

maybe I read this too fast... no maybe to it

But I cannot figure out from what I've read here.. whether you believe in works or faith or both

Works are required, however. Read the 2nd book of James and see for yourself (but there are other Books also)

Works are INEVITABLE when someone is reborn in Christ. They are the EVIDENCE that the person is reborn. Thus, faith without works is dead, because it isn't real.

If someone has been blind since birth and claims they can now see, but still put their hands out in front of them to make sure they don't run into anything, can they see?
If someone has been blind since birth and now can see, they will throw away their white cane and walk confidently in the light.

In this case, changed behavior naturally goes along with the claim, and the claim of being able to see is dead without the changed behavior. Thus it is with Godly behavior. If you are saved in Christ, you WILL act differently. If you don't, you're not really changed. This is because an encounter with Christ inevitably changes someone.

 

[hadit]

No real argument from me here, but one other observation.
Serious Bible scholars have identified and noted some places in the Bible referred to as 'scribal glosses' in which a scribe copying a manuscript onto another parchment would make a note of clarification in the margin. And the next scribe that came along copying the copy sometimes incorporated those notations into the main body of the text. So did that corrupt the original text or was that process also inspired by the Holy Spirit? Who knows? But it does explain some seeming inconsistencies in the overall manuscripts.

Also when I teach Bible I insist that the students set aside all their 20th or 21st Century conditioning and cultural understandings and as much as possible read the text through the eyes of those who wrote down the words, i.e. from their perspective, their understanding, their environment, their history, their culture, their beliefs, their customs etc. If we do not do that we will interpret it through our own culture and understanding and get it a lot more wrong.

I have no doubt that God approves of the Bible and has helped protect it all these millenia so that it remains the #1 best selling book in the world even today.

That is the correct way to understand the Bible.

 

[ReinyDays]

faith alone is the proper understanding; works dont get you to heaven at all.

We believe that "the Flesh follows the Spirit" ... thus, first we have the sinful thought, then we act sinfully in body ... not the other way around ... so I ask ... why would your faith in Jesus Christ lead you to commit evil works? ... or do you think confessing your sins on your deathbed is enough to get to Heaven? ...

Some gleanings from Proverbs Chapter 12:

14 A man shall be satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth: and the recompence of a man's hands shall be rendered unto him.
24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.
27 The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: but the substance of a diligent man is precious.

Without works, one would starve to death ... I'm not saying there's salvation in works, but there is death ... sloth is a sin under Catholicism ...

 

[Blues Man]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

I don't think any god that would punish a person, who by every measure lived what was a good and admirable life, simply because he didn't worship him/her/it is a god worth worshipping.

 

[BS Filter]

I don't think any god that would punish a person, who by every measure lived what was a good and admirable life, simply because he didn't worship him/her/it is a god worth worshipping.

If someone ignores the lifeline while drowning in the ocean, how is that considered punishment by the person who threw the lifeline?

 

[Blues Man]

If someone ignores the lifeline while drowning in the ocean, how is that considered punishment by the person who threw the lifeline?

That's not a very good analogy.

The man in my example isn't drowning he is just a mortal who would have died at some point in time whether or not he worshipped any gods. He expected no rewards for his actions in life

So why would any god punish a man that in every measure but religion lived a good and admirable life defined by his own good works simply because he didn't worship?