Zone1 I am aware that I am stretching scripture: "Is it possible, even absent of belief, that a persons action on this planet can lead them to heaven"?

[hadit]

If that were so then there wouldn't be so many Christians obsessing over why their prayers aren't answered. Which of that 4 would you offer them?
I, as an atheist would tell them what is obvious to me.

5. There is no personal god who answers prayers.

(note that no personal attack against you is necessary)

I do understand your position and naturally reject your opinion. That being said, I would say that all of those reasons apply to the prayers of most people. They don't bother to pray until they want something, they don't strive to understand God and have a relationship with Him, they don't understand what faith is and don't have any, they're impatient, wanting something right now, and they don't even bother to ask if their prayer is in line with His will. Basically, they treat God like He's an ATM, hoping if they push the right buttons in the right sequence, the goodies will fall out.

 

[Donald H]

It's not. I'm challenging your beliefs. You don't seem to want to admit that the essence of atheism is that we exist only to satisfy material needs and our animal instincts.

What else is there to live for in your opinion? I might be able to include something else for me to live for too.
I'm thinking that my enjoyment of the natural world would fit under your definition of animal instinct. I'm thinking that my love for others, including other mammals, and everything else that brings me joy and happiness would also be animal instinct.

There is no higher purpose to man than those two things.

The last sentence is likely true, but not just true of atheists, as you noted.

 

[Donald H]

I do understand your position and naturally reject your opinion. That being said, I would say that all of those reasons apply to the prayers of most people. They don't bother to pray until they want something, they don't strive to understand God and have a relationship with Him, they don't understand what faith is and don't have any, they're impatient, wanting something right now, and they don't even bother to ask if their prayer is in line with His will. Basically, they treat God like He's an ATM, hoping if they push the right buttons in the right sequence, the goodies will fall out.

I hear you!
There's no personal attack contained in that message, but there's great deal of criticism of others.

If I were a Christian I would be positive and optimistic of my fellow Christians. Even from an atheist POV, there's something good in Ding's and Meriweather's efforts.

I think that already they're going to be more cautious of not falling into a trap of personal attacks.

 

[ding]

What else is there to live for in your opinion? I might be able to include something else for me to live for too.
I'm thinking that my enjoyment of the natural world would fit under your definition of animal instinct. I'm thinking that my love for others, including other mammals, and everything else that brings me joy and happiness would also be animal instinct.

I'm going to take that as a yes, you only exist to satisfy your material needs and primitive instincts. So if enough people agreed that it was ok to eat other human beings or own other people as slaves that would be ok as long as society decided it was ok, right? Because right and wrong can be anything man says it can be, right? There is no such thing as a universal right and wrong because all that matters is the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

 

[ding]

The last sentence is likely true, but not just true of atheists, as you noted.

Which is exactly why men can make morals anything they want. They are the highest power.

 

[ding]

I'm thinking that my enjoyment of the natural world would fit under your definition of animal instinct. I'm thinking that my love for others, including other mammals, and everything else that brings me joy and happiness would also be animal instinct.

That's exactly the argument pedophiles make. Because they don't see anything wrong with it and they believe there is no higher power than man. So whatever they decide is right is ok. because there is no universal truth that exists independent of man because all there is is satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

 

[Donald H]

That's exactly the argument pedophiles make. Because they don't see anything wrong with it and they believe there is no higher power than man. So whatever they decide is right is ok. because there is no universal truth that exists independent of man because all there is is satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

In comparison to all other occupations, there is no greater frequency of pedophilia than that of Catholic priests. Yet I can be charitable in saying that I don't think that Catholic priests can only be cherishing material needs and primitive instincts.

Indeed, according to your standards, those priests would qualify as being the most prone to be searching for something more in life..

Yet it's the Catholic priests who have gained a reputation to be suspected. Even now, Catholic priests are protected by the church by being moved to some obscure location instead of being fired. Some location from which they can continue the practice unnoticed!

 

[ding]

In comparison to all other occupations, there is no greater frequency of pedophilia than that of Catholic priests. Yet I can be charitable in saying that I don't think that Catholic priests can only be cherishing material needs and primitive instincts.

Indeed, according to your standards, those priests would qualify as being the most prone to be searching for something more in life..

Yet it's the Catholic priests who have gained a reputation to be suspected. Even now, Catholic priests are protected by the church by being moved to some obscure location instead of being fired. Some location from which they can continue the practice unnoticed!

But according to the atheist worldview as long as man deemed pedophilia was acceptable pedophilia would be acceptable because atheists don't believe in a universal right and wrong independent of man. In the Christian worldview pedophila is wrong and was wrong when the 200 or so Catholic priests committed it.

I cringe at what would be allowed in an atheist world.

 

[ding]

In comparison to all other occupations, there is no greater frequency of pedophilia than that of Catholic priests. Yet I can be charitable in saying that I don't think that Catholic priests can only be cherishing material needs and primitive instincts.

Indeed, according to your standards, those priests would qualify as being the most prone to be searching for something more in life..

Yet it's the Catholic priests who have gained a reputation to be suspected. Even now, Catholic priests are protected by the church by being moved to some obscure location instead of being fired. Some location from which they can continue the practice unnoticed!

You know you will lose this argument when you admit that there are things that are universally wrong and will always be universally wrong no matter what any man says.

 

[ding]

If a world full of atheists believed slavery, incest, pedophilia were acceptable then those things would be acceptable because atheism is only concerned with satisfying material needs and primitive impulses. They see no distinction between good and evil because to them good and evil is a man made concept and not a universal concept independent of man and can be anything they say it is. That's the consequence of atheism.

 

[Donald H]

You know you will lose this argument when you admit that there are things that are universally wrong and will always be universally wrong no matter what any man says.

I can't imagine what is universally wrong, that I deny. You alluding to such tells me that you might have something in mind?

Is this intended to be a reference to my remarks about the behaviour of Catholic priests?

Pedophilia could be said to be a universal wrong but that says noting about the occupation in which it is most prevalent.

It's said too that psychopathy is most prevalent in CEO's.

I admit that 'both' are universal wrongs and likely always will be.

 

[ding]

I can't imagine what is universally wrong, that I deny. You alluding to such tells me that you might have something in mind?

Is this intended to be a reference to my remarks about the behaviour of Catholic priests?

Pedophilia could be said to be a universal wrong but that says noting about the occupation in which it is most prevalent.

It's said too that psychopathy is most prevalent in CEO's.

I admit that 'both' are universal wrongs and likely always will be.

If you don't deny there is such a thing as universal right and wrong that is independent of what man wants it to be then you have just acknowledged a higher power than man.

 

[onefour1]

John 3:3-5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus taught that for a man to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of the water and of the spirit. In other words, he must receive baptism by immersion by one having authority to baptize and he must also receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by one having authority to give it. Being born of the water and spirit is a commitment to follow the Lord and his ways and is also a commitment to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost. At baptism, ones sins are forgiven and if he commits sin thereafter, he must repent and ask the Lord for forgiveness, always striving to follow the commandments and striving to stay on the strait and narrow path that Jesus has asked us to follow. If one is not willing to enter the strait and narrow path to life eternal, they cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Blues Man]

Did he attain God's standard of holiness? No. Like I said in my analogy of people attempting to swim from California to Hawaii, some would make it 50 yards, some would make it a mile, and a few might make it 50 miles, but none of them would reach Hawaii. Now, the monk would be judged by what he knows, and it's up to God to decide to apply the blood of Christ to his life or not, but none of us has an excuse.

You said a mere mortal cannot judge by a god's standards.

Your swimming and drowning analogies just don't work.

Any god that would say the Buddhist monk in my example was not worthy of of whatever it is a god gives to people simply because he didn't stroke that god's ego by worshipping is not a god that deserves to be worshipped.

 

[hadit]

You said a mere mortal cannot judge by a god's standards.

We're not God, so why would I judge by His standards? I'm not the judge, He is.

Your swimming and drowning analogies just don't work.

Of course they do. I notice that you don't specify as to why you don't think they work. Is it just because you object, but don't know why?

Any god that would say the Buddhist monk in my example was not worthy of of whatever it is a god gives to people simply because he didn't stroke that god's ego by worshipping is not a god that deserves to be worshipped.

You're using your standard of righteousness, and your standard simply doesn't apply, God's does. Like I said, the way out is freely available to all, and your petty refusal of the only lifeline only condemns yourself. And yes, the analogy works very well to illustrate the total impossibility of being good enough on your own to obligate God to accept you. You could do the same thing by having everyone line up and try to jump to the moon. Some would clear 12 inches, some 7 feet, but absolutely none would make it to the moon because the bar is just too high. Any good things you do here on earth in your own name and under your own power stay here. They may impress other humans, but God doesn't look at them, He looks at the heart.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I don't think any god that would punish a person, who by every measure lived what was a good and admirable life, simply because he didn't worship him/her/it is a god worth worshipping.

we worship God because that is good for US, not Him. He doesn't need one word of praise or appreciation from us. But WE need to love and adore Him...exist IN Him...

I'm not saying all Christians are always in Adoring mode vis a vis God.. I have gotten angry @ Him many times... but I am more at peace when I'm .. well, I consider it an act of worship to appeciate nature and things like that..

 

[Meriweather]

If that were so then there wouldn't be so many Christians obsessing over why their prayers aren't answered. Which of that 4 would you offer them?
I, as an atheist would tell them what is obvious to me.

5. There is no personal god who answers prayers.

God is. The prayers that are answered are usually requests whose purpose is to make it possible to serve God, or serve Him better.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

No

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

In comparison to all other occupations, there is no greater frequency of pedophilia than that of Catholic priests

This is either an outright LIE, or ignorance. In any case that statement is simply not true. Look to government (atheistic) schools.

 

[Blues Man]

We're not God, so why would I judge by His standards? I'm not the judge, He is.

Of course they do. I notice that you don't specify as to why you don't think they work. Is it just because you object, but don't know why?

You're using your standard of righteousness, and your standard simply doesn't apply, God's does. Like I said, the way out is freely available to all, and your petty refusal of the only lifeline only condemns yourself. And yes, the analogy works very well to illustrate the total impossibility of being good enough on your own to obligate God to accept you. You could do the same thing by having everyone line up and try to jump to the moon. Some would clear 12 inches, some 7 feet, but absolutely none would make it to the moon because the bar is just too high. Any good things you do here on earth in your own name and under your own power stay here. They may impress other humans, but God doesn't look at them, He looks at the heart.

They do not work because living a good life and swimming have nothing to do with each other.

If a person lives a good life merely for the sake of living a good life he is not trying to "swim" anywhere. The person who lives a good life because he wants a divine reward is the one who is "swimming"

Yes we know you think your god's standards apply to everyone. There are those of us who do not believe the god in the bible is anything but a human fiction and that if gods do exist they are most likely not the god depicted in the Bible.

And do you think because a person does not worship your god that they do not or cannot have a good heart?