Zone1 I am aware that I am stretching scripture: "Is it possible, even absent of belief, that a persons action on this planet can lead them to heaven"?

[Carl in Michigan]

The person who lives a good life because he wants a divine reward

That's not what a Christian is doing..
They "live a good life" because they love God their Father and want to be like their Father.

God rewards His children because they are His begotten children (they have the "seed" of His Spirit)

 

[Blues Man]

That's not what a Christian is doing..
They "live a good life" because they love God their Father and want to be like their Father.

God rewards His children because they are His begotten children (they have the "seed" of His Spirit)

No they want their eternal reward.
All religion operates on fear and greed

Fear of divine punishments and the want of eternal rewards.

 

[ding]

No they want their eternal reward.
All religion operates on fear and greed

Fear of divine punishments and the want of eternal rewards.

No we want to progress to the best version of ourselves. It's about the journey, not the destination. It seems you have learned absolutely nothing from Buddhism.

 

[hadit]

They do not work because living a good life and swimming have nothing to do with each other.

The analogy illustrates the futility of trying to reach God's standard of holiness on your own. It's an illustration, not a mirror.

If a person lives a good life merely for the sake of living a good life he is not trying to "swim" anywhere. The person who lives a good life because he wants a divine reward is the one who is "swimming"

You are correct. A person who lives a good life because he wants a divine reward is not doing good things as the result of a changed heart, he is trying to obligate God to reward him. God is not an ATM. See below for the explanation of faith and works.

Yes we know you think your god's standards apply to everyone. There are those of us who do not believe the god in the bible is anything but a human fiction and that if gods do exist they are most likely not the god depicted in the Bible.

The law of gravity applies to you whether you want to believe it or not. God's standard also applies to everyone, whether they want to believe it or not.

And do you think because a person does not worship your god that they do not or cannot have a good heart?

It's irrelevant whether they have a "good" heart or not, because they don't have a perfect heart. The analogy stands because it illustrates the futility of trying to "earn" God's favor (actually, you're trying to obligate God to bless you, in essence treating Him like an ATM) through works.

Now, you also fail to understand the relationship between faith and works. The Christian doesn't do good works hoping to earn salvation, he does good works because they are the natural result of the change in his heart. When you're in love with a person, you do good things for them, but you don't do those things because you want to obligate them to do things for you, that's cynical manipulation. You do those things because you want that person to be happy. The same with the Christian. His works are the result of, not the hope of, salvation.

I said before that you are correct, someone living a "good" life hoping it will earn him favor from God is on a fool's errand. We cannot obligate God to give us favor through our works.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

No they want their eternal reward.
All religion operates on fear and greed

Fear of divine punishments and the want of eternal rewards.

You think like the carnal mind. I don't know a single single sincere Christian who has your mindset.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

I don't have fear.

Do not be afraid little flock. It is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."--Jesus

 

[Blues Man]

You think like the carnal mind. I don't know a single single sincere Christian who has your mindset.

I don't have fear.

Do not be afraid little flock. It is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."--Jesus

Christians are conditioned how to think by their religion.

And I'm not part of a flock

 

[Donald H]

God is. The prayers that are answered are usually requests whose purpose is to make it possible to serve God, or serve Him better.

By your definition, there are a lot of people wasting their time praying. It's gallant of you to suggest that's why people pray but it's simply not true.

 

[Meriweather]

By your definition, there are a lot of people wasting their time praying. It's gallant of you to suggest that's why people pray but it's simply not true.

Prayer is never a waste of time for any number of reasons. If people are wondering sincerely why a prayer is not being answered, there are a couple of things to consider.

First, could it be compared to going to a florist and asking for a tuxedo. My own experience is going to God for help in accomplishing that would serve God, brings result. One time I thought that theory might be wrong, because it took four years--not so much for the prayer to be answered, but to accomplish the work within me that would enable me to serve. God works, not in a second, but over time.

Even so, a dearly loved little chinchilla (a pet rodent) was in critical condition. What would one little miracle hurt--she was just a young rodent, no one would know and start bombarding Him for other chinchilla miracles. Physically, it was not possible for the little chinchilla to survive. Prayed anyway. Interesting things started happening. The chinchilla died. But from that death, other (small) things began to happen--little things that wouldn't have, had that chinchilla survived. God's miracles aren't always that miracle we had hoped for.

 

[Blues Man]

The analogy illustrates the futility of trying to reach God's standard of holiness on your own. It's an illustration, not a mirror.

You are correct. A person who lives a good life because he wants a divine reward is not doing good things as the result of a changed heart, he is trying to obligate God to reward him. God is not an ATM. See below for the explanation of faith and works.

The law of gravity applies to you whether you want to believe it or not. God's standard also applies to everyone, whether they want to believe it or not.

It's irrelevant whether they have a "good" heart or not, because they don't have a perfect heart. The analogy stands because it illustrates the futility of trying to "earn" God's favor (actually, you're trying to obligate God to bless you, in essence treating Him like an ATM) through works.

Now, you also fail to understand the relationship between faith and works. The Christian doesn't do good works hoping to earn salvation, he does good works because they are the natural result of the change in his heart. When you're in love with a person, you do good things for them, but you don't do those things because you want to obligate them to do things for you, that's cynical manipulation. You do those things because you want that person to be happy. The same with the Christian. His works are the result of, not the hope of, salvation.

I said before that you are correct, someone living a "good" life hoping it will earn him favor from God is on a fool's errand. We cannot obligate God to give us favor through our works.

Gravity and the god of a religion invented by men have nothing in common

 

[hadit]

Gravity and the god of a religion invented by men have nothing in common

Like I said, it's irrelevant whether you believe it or not.

 

[notmyfault2020]

No they want their eternal reward.
All religion operates on fear and greed

Fear of divine punishments and the want of eternal rewards.

That's absurd... illogical

Just because people are concerned about ending up in Hell (and definitely should be, considering Jesus's words on the subject!) does not mean that that is the only reason they follow Jesus... too bad you obviously don't know Him well or you would know some of those reasons.. pretty sad..

 

[Blues Man]

That's absurd... illogical

Just because people are concerned about ending up in Hell (and definitely should be, considering Jesus's words on the subject!) does not mean that that is the only reason they follow Jesus... too bad you obviously don't know Him well or you would know some of those reasons.. pretty sad..

I have no use for gods
If I was given irrefutable proof that any gods existed I still would not worship any gods.

Personally I think it's sad that people need the illusion of an all powerful god to be happy

 

[hadit]

I have no use for gods
If I was given irrefutable proof that any gods existed I still would not worship any gods.

Personally I think it's sad that people need the illusion of an all powerful god to be happy

I think what you find sad is that people ARE happy with God and you are not.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I have no use for gods
If I was given irrefutable proof that any gods existed I still would not worship any gods.

Personally I think it's sad that people need the illusion of an all powerful god to be happy

Call it illusion but at worst it is curioiusity with the unknown, a higher state of being even. If a mature, wise person doesn't speculate about our universe, the meaning of life and our souls, can they actually be deemed as being wise?

 

[Coyote]

The problem I have with certain organized religions is that one must be a believer or be relegated to Hell. Or purgatory (not much better). So that means that someone who is a good person, and acts in accordance with Jesus (love you neighbor as you would yourself, charity, compassion etc) would be sent to hell.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem I have with certain organized religions is that one must be a believer or be relegated to Hell. Or purgatory (not much better). So that means that someone who is a good person, and acts in accordance with Jesus (love you neighbor as you would yourself, charity, compassion etc) would be sent to hell.

What a religion teaches and what one is required to believe isn't the same--at least not in Catholicism. There have always been a wide range in beliefs in the faith, but as long as one is in agreement with the major ones, everyone is in good standing. Some of the great Catholic Saints disagreed with one another.

Second, placing too much focus on any one Bible verse is not a good practice. For example, Jesus said that the kingdom of God is at hand--meaning within the reach of everyone. He said some prostitutes and tax collectors were entering the kingdom ahead of the religious community. He said the Kingdom looks for people who have great value.

Hell is for those who choose a separation from God and His ways; purgatory is a purification process. Sin separates us from God, and it makes sense we would rather be purified than continuing on through eternity with God always out of reach.

The purpose of religion is to draw everyone closer to God, to draw us away from the world for awhile each week.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I have no use for gods
If I was given irrefutable proof that any gods existed I still would not worship any gods.

Personally I think it's sad that people need the illusion of an all powerful god to be happy

Note to self:
Take advice from some liberal on the internet. Ignore all personal experiences

 

[Blues Man]

I think what you find sad is that people ARE happy with God and you are not.

You have no basis to make any judgment on my happiness.

 

[Blues Man]

Note to self:
Take advice from some liberal on the internet. Ignore all personal experiences

I'm not a liberal. I haven't voted for a democrat in the last 3 decades.

FYI not a republican either.

And what personal experience do you have that proves the god in the Bible is actually a true depiction of any god ?

 

[Blues Man]

Call it illusion but at worst it is curioiusity with the unknown, a higher state of being even. If a mature, wise person doesn't speculate about our universe, the meaning of life and our souls, can they actually be deemed as being wise?

You don't need to believe in gods to speculate about the universe. The only meaning your life has is the one you define.