Zone1 I am aware that I am stretching scripture: "Is it possible, even absent of belief, that a persons action on this planet can lead them to heaven"?

[shockedcanadian]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

I interpret Jesus as saying follow HIM. That means to do the best one cans at following his words.

I think it is quite possible to Follow His words while not following Paul, or any of the old testament stuff or what Christians say by way of representing the religion of Christianity.

As such, I believe that one can follow Jesus without being a Christian per se.

 

[ReinyDays]

Protestants believe in faith alone will get us to Heaven ... and that's different from Catholic teachings which say faith and works to get to Heaven ...

Meaning no one believes that works alone gets us to Heaven ... however, if you want to believe that, go ahead, at a minimum you'll stay out of prison, succeed in business, have a happy marriage, attentive children and maybe ... just maybe ... the house cat will respect you ...

Just don't call it Christian Heaven ... okay? ...

 

[JoeMoma]

Protestants believe in faith alone will get us to Heaven ... and that's different from Catholic teachings which say faith and works to get to Heaven ...

Meaning no one believes that works alone gets us to Heaven ... however, if you want to believe that, go ahead, at a minimum you'll stay out of prison, succeed in business, have a happy marriage, attentive children and maybe ... just maybe ... the house cat will respect you ...

Just don't call it Christian Heaven ... okay? ...

And Protestants tend to believe that if faith is real then the works will follow so with the exception of death bed salvations there will be both faith and works. That said, from a Christian perspective, if works alone will get us to Heaven, then Jesus's death and resurrection were in vain.

Maybe the Great Spaghetti Monster has a different system for people to go to heaven!

 

[Donald H]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

I'm an atheist but I'm as moral as most Christians. A belief in a god doesn't make me moral.

I can't address the question directly on going to heaven for obvious reasons of not believing there is a god or a heaven.

 

[ding]

I'm an atheist but I'm as moral as most Christians. A belief in a god doesn't make me moral.

I can't address the question directly on going to heaven for obvious reasons of not believing there is a god or a heaven.

Atheism proceeds in all it's manifestations that the life of individuals and society in general does not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts. So, no... your morals are not the same as Christian morals. Morals to you are whatever is needed to justify your satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

 

[ding]

Protestants believe in faith alone will get us to Heaven ... and that's different from Catholic teachings which say faith and works to get to Heaven ...

Interestingly enough, Catholics believe that anyone can repent at the last second and receive saving grace. So for that scenario Catholics do believe it's grace alone.

 

[luiza]

"Is it possible, even absent of belief, that a persons action on this planet can lead them to heaven"?

No .
It will take thousands of different sorts of lives and in different dimensions .
Until Eternity , which will seem in the blink of the eye .
Then eternal " now-ness" in energy form .
imho

 

[Donald H]

Atheism proceeds in all it's manifestations that the life of individuals and society in general does not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts. So, no... your morals are not the same as Christian morals. Morals to you are whatever is needed to justify your satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts.

First of all Ding, if you post repeatedly quoting me, I won't be answering your questions and comments. We're going to have a polite discussion! Let that be a test of my morals for a start, and then we can go on to test people's morals by their behaviour on this forum. Do you feel that I've compromised my morals while discussing and responding to anyone on this board?

I don't criticize your behaviour as being immoral but I certainly don't attribute any of your behaviour traits to you being a Christian.

Christians commit heinous crimes against humanity as frequently as do non-Christians.

 

[ding]

First of all Ding, if you post repeatedly quoting me, I won't be answering your questions and comments. We're going to have a polite discussion! Let that be a test of my morals for a start, and then we can go on to test people's morals by their behaviour on this forum. Do you feel that I've compromised my morals while discussing and responding to anyone on this board?

I don't criticize your behaviour as being immoral but I certainly don't attribute any of your behaviour traits to you being a Christian.

Christians commit heinous crimes against humanity as frequently as do non-Christians.

I'm just mirroring back what you are doing.

If you are going to combat religion. I'm going to combat atheism.

 

[ding]

The propaganda of atheism is necessary for our program. Vladimir Lenin

 

[BS Filter]

I think Hebrews 11:6 answers the question. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

 

[Donald H]

I'm just mirroring back what you are doing.

If you are going to combat religion. I'm going to combat atheism.

I don't accept that I'm combatting religion, but I am bringing the contradiction up to the light of day.

We have no quarrel if you continue to accept that your bibles are not to be taken as the literal word of your god.

When the Catholic church accepted Darwinian evolution, it built it's nest for the foreseeable future.

Have we exhausted the topic of the universe's beginning? Can we put down our disagreement to the fact that no theory is proven by science?

 

[Donald H]

I think Hebrews 11:6 answers the question. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Religion is entirely based on faith in my opinion. There are so many contradictions contained in both the first and second edition that nothing can be believed that's based on anything more than faith.

Respectfully, this is a discussion and so let's all try to keep it respectful.

 

[notmyfault2020]

This is one question of many I have pondered.

So, whether one is an Atheist or any religious believer, if one acts with the highest degree of integrity, character, righteousness, sacrifice etc, conducive to the instructions of Jesus, can they still gain entry to heaven without actually believing?

I realize that John 14; 6 among others, states it clearly "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

However, I ask because people will be aware of Jesus, might be indifferent or view what they know of him positively, but, don't submit themselves for whatever reason. Can they still gain entry through merit and the awareness of Christ?

Only God can answer this.

But my opinion is that a person who loves God.. and that can mean anyone who has been raised Christian or NOT can get to Heaven even though the person may have to go through years of purgation in Purgatory before reaching Heaven. That's because there is no sin whatsoever in Heaven and we are all sinners... so yeh... Rubik's cube for us humans , but not for God. With God all things are possible (in the Bible but I'm not sure where).

The reason someone who loves God but does not enter His Church (the one founded by Christ) can make it to Heaven is that.. He may have heard one too many bad things about that Church,figures it is not actually the real Church Christ founded.. and there are other reasons, presumably, for him having a good reason not to join. However, Christ established a Church, an objective FACT and so, the person who gets to Heaven goes through that Church whether knowingly or otherwise... to get to Heaven..

 

[ding]

I don't accept that I'm combatting religion, but I am bringing the contradiction up to the light of day.

We have no quarrel if you continue to accept that your bibles are not to be taken as the literal word of your god.

When the Catholic church accepted Darwinian evolution, it built it's nest for the foreseeable future.

Have we exhausted the topic of the universe's beginning? Can we put down our disagreement to the fact that no theory is proven by science?

Call it what you want. Don't care.

Your way of seeing religion is exactly aligned with the founding fathers of communism.

You post the way you want and I'll post the way I want. Seems fair to me.

 

[BS Filter]

Religion is entirely based on faith in my opinion. There are so many contradictions contained in both the first and second edition that nothing can be believed that's based on anything more than faith.

Respectfully, this is a discussion and so let's all try to keep it respectful.

First and second edition of what?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Religion is entirely based on faith in my opinion. There are so many contradictions contained in both the first and second edition that nothing can be believed that's based on anything more than faith.

correction

There are contradictions and SEEMING contradictions

one needs to closely examine things to find out which is which in his or her human (ie prone to error) mind/heart/soul

 

[BS Filter]

Only God can answer this.

But my opinion is that a person who loves God.. and that can mean anyone who has been raised Christian or NOT can get to Heaven even though the person may have to go through years of purgation in Purgatory before reaching Heaven. That's because there is no sin whatsoever in Heaven and we are all sinners... so yeh... Rubik's cube for us humans , but not for God. With God all things are possible (in the Bible but I'm not sure where).

The reason someone who loves God but does not enter His Church (the one founded by Christ) can make it to Heaven is that.. He may have heard one too many bad things about that Church,figures it is not actually the real Church Christ founded.. and there are other reasons, presumably, for him having a good reason not to join. However, Christ established a Church, an objective FACT and so, the person who gets to Heaven goes through that Church whether knowingly or otherwise... to get to Heaven..

According to Scripture, the Church isn't an organization, but everyone who believes in Jesus.

 

[notmyfault2020]

According to Scripture, the Church isn't an organization, but everyone who believes in Jesus.

no, that's according to Protestants, not Scripture