Zone1 Have we lost The Bible Story?

[Meriweather]

Killed all the babies because they didn't obey just right.

Gross.

Please quote the verse that says all the babies were killed. I am guessing once that verse is located, we will see that it is followed by the verse saying the babies weren't obeying just right?

 

[BreezeWood]

True. The leaders of catholicism long ago threw out the literal interpretation of genesis.

never ... their interpretation as that made in genesis, patriarch than liberator the corruption of moses is bedrock rcc from beginning to end.

 

[BreezeWood]

Again, try the Hebrew and rabbinical teaching.

the very reason for the 1st century events and the refutation of judaism by jesus and those others that gave their lives for the true heavenly personification the reiteration of the heavenly religion of antiquity reimposed by the true parable of noah.

 

[alang1216]

I guess my "see what I did there comment" flew over your head.

Feel free to 'splain it to me. Small words only, please.

I only know that by the age of 12 your mind was made up. That you see no problem with that is beyond me.

I reached many conclusions when I was young. I concluded I didn't like celery or beets. I've tried both since but my original conclusion is still valid.

 

[ding]

Feel free to 'splain it to me. Small words only, please.


I reached many conclusions when I was young. I concluded I didn't like celery or beets. I've tried both since but my original conclusion is still valid.

Brilliant logic

 

[Donald H]

Remember what I said that this story presents a lesson, a philosophy not a science lesson. If you wish to discuss the theme and the philosophy, I am all in. I am not interested in discussing science.

I would be interested in discussing the lesson in the Noah's ark story or the great flood story. It seems to me there would have to be two lessons there.

I think we will have to start the discussions in order to determine that which is 'science' and what is not. The fossil record for instance wouldn't be disqualified on the basis of it being science. That's just fact on which both of us have reached agreement.

The animals? Are they part of the lesson. I think they play too large a part to not be?

I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know what lesson the ark story teaches us. Or the great flood story for that matter?

Can you provide a brief explanation of both?

 

[Donald H]

You really shouldn't be speaking of honesty, Donald. We both know what you are.

I've since relented and agreed with Meri that we can talk about the Ark story and the great flood story, leaving out science. We might have some difficulty determining what is 'science' and what is not.

What are the lessons in those stories in your opinion?

But first of all, are they literally true stories or do you agree with Meri on the great flood being a localized smaller flood than the entire earth, to the tops of the mountains?

 

[Donald H]

And your assertions about Catholic schools not accepting a more localized flood doesn't sit well with me. I know they do.

I have no way of knowing what the students believe and so I'll retract my assumption that they still believe the great flood story and the animals, for now.

I'm not hearing much on opinions either way and that's unusual for this board?

 

[Donald H]

Older than the Big Bang!

Webb telescope discovers oldest galaxies ever observed

The James Webb Space Telescope has discovered the four most distant galaxies ever observed, one of which formed just 320 million years after the Big Bang when the universe was still in its infancy, new research said on Tuesday.

phys.org

The reason why the bible can claim the 'Big Bang', but can't claim creation with it.

 

[Meriweather]

It seems to me there would have to be two lessons there.

Yes.

1. Justice
2. Grace of Salvation - A New Beginning

 

[hobelim]

The animals? Are they part of the lesson. I think they play too large a part to not be?

Try to include in your speculations that the animals described in kosher law, which was held in the ark of the covenant, represent human archetypes, their flesh, whether clean or unclean, represents their beliefs, ideologies, etc, some edify and some defile and contaminate the mind.

The story is loosely based on an actual event and used to teach children lessons from the past.

Under over 12,000 feet of water in the Indian Ocean there is an impact crater 25 times the size of meteor crater in AZ, the Burkle crater, dated to approximate time of the original flood story 5000 years ago. This impact which would have instantly vaporized billions of metric tons of water into the stratosphere caused mega tsunamis, superstorms, and a worldwide deluge that would have swept away all coastal civilizations and every city village town or settlement situated near rivers, streams and even dry washes in the deserts, which would have lasted for several weeks.

The survivors would have thought there was an angry God up in the sky who had the mind boggling power to destroy the world so started religions to appease him lest they incur his wrath

This doesn't necessarily mean that there in no superior intelligence who could have nudged and asteroid at the earth. Humans, as primitive as they are, have the technology to do that now.

 

[Donald H]

Try to include in your speculations that the animals described in kosher law, which was held in the ark of the covenant, represent human archetypes, their flesh, whether clean or unclean, represents their beliefs, ideologies, etc, some edify and some defile and contaminate the mind.

The story is loosely based on an actual event and used to teach children lessons from the past.

Under over 12,000 feet of water in the Indian Ocean there is an impact crater 25 times the size of meteor crater in AZ, the Burkle crater, dated to approximate time of the original flood story 5000 years ago. This impact which would have instantly vaporized billions of metric tons of water into the stratosphere caused mega tsunamis, superstorms, and a worldwide deluge that would have swept away all coastal civilizations and every city village town or settlement situated near rivers, streams and even dry washes in the deserts, which would have lasted for several weeks.

The survivors would have thought there was an angry God up in the sky who had the mind boggling power to destroy the world so started religions to appease him lest they incur his wrath

This doesn't necessarily mean that there in no superior intelligence who could have nudged and asteroid at the earth. Humans, as primitive as they are, have the technology to do that now.

I have two comments to make on your explanation of the great flood and assuming that you include the ark and the pairs of animals. The first is a question:

1. What is the lesson to children?

2. I can't accept the suggestion of the flood happening 5000 years ago.

 

[Donald H]

Yes.

1. Justice
2. Grace of Salvation - A New Beginning

You say that you are 'all in' on discussing the lessons of the great flood and Noah's ark, but you don't help me to understand 1, the justice, and 2. the lesson in a new beginning.

But in fact, your belief in a localized flood doesn't serve 'justice' or a 'new beginning' in any way that I could imagine.

Can you provide an explanation of those two lessons that is compatible with your stated beliefs?

Justice? Justice for what local area's humans and lifeforms in what location?

A new beginning? For humans and lifeforms in what location?

Sincerely Meri, you seem to be going somewhere with your interpretation and I'm very interested in learning where?

You've made some statements now that are completely new to me as being an understanding of the stories.

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On my post of a link to galazies older than the 'big bang', do you have a comment regarding creation?

 

[Donald H]

This may come as a surprise to some but you don't have half the integrity that FFI has.

Don't sit it out my friend,, over having ill feelings toward me. I'm not going to return to 'shit flinging' as we did in the past. Meri and I are exploring new ground that could be coming close to finding the BIG answer everyone is searching for!

Also, don't miss Hobelim's explanation that a large meteorite caused the great flood about 5000 years ago. Let's all of us keep an open mind!

 

[hobelim]

1. What is the lesson to children?

Don't be an asshole.

2. I can't accept the suggestion of the flood happening 5000 years ago.

can you accept what a hurricane or a tsunami can do? Multiply that by 1,000,000,000.

There are over 200 flood 'myths' from every continent around the world told by people who knew the difference between a regional or seasonal flood from a catastrophic extinction level event.

The crater is there and dated to that time period. Try to use your imagination in a rational way.

 

[Donald H]

Don't be an asshole.


can you accept what a hurricane or a tsunami can do? Try too use your imagination in a rational way.

Of course I can accept what a hurricane or a tsunami can do, but all known examples fall far, far short of covering the entire earth in water. But I didn't argue that point and so will avoid it for now.

My remark was about it happening 5000 years ago and that' impossible for it being earth years.

 

[Donald H]

Don't be an asshole.


can you accept what a hurricane or a tsunami can do? Multiply that by 1,000,000,000.

There are over 200 flood 'myths' from every continent around the world told by people who knew the difference between a regional or seasonal flood from a catastrophic extinction level event.

The crater is there and dated to that time period. Try to use your imagination in a rational way.

You are one of the few who believe in the great flood and the Ark with the animals story. I didn't expect it and am surprised that one surfaced at this point in the discussion.

Do you agree with Meri that students at a Catholic school don't accept the stories as being literally true.l

Warning: One more 'asshole' comment from you and you'll be excluded!

 

[hobelim]

Of course I can accept what a hurricane or a tsunami can do, but all known examples fall far, far short of covering the entire earth in water. But I didn't argue that point and so will avoid it for now.

My remark was about it happening 5000 years ago and that' impossible for it being earth years.

So they used figurative language and hyperbole when they wrote that the waters covered the mountains, a metaphor for the big shots and wealthy elite who loomed over the human landscapes like immovable mountains, just like when Ezekiel was told to prophecy to "the mountains of Israel" about their future destruction which was not about a geological formation.

Money power and fame couldn't save them from being swept clean away by the rising waters.

 

[hobelim]

You are one of the few who believe in the great flood and the Ark with the animals story. I didn't expect it and am surprised that one surfaced at this point in the discussion.

I believe in the story in the same way I believe that the story of Pinocchio conveys many truths.

Do you agree with Meri that students at a Catholic school don't accept the stories as being literally true.l

Yes I agree with Meri on that point.

I didn't believe the story was literally true when I was 8 years old. I had known all about figurative language used in fairy tales and how to understand them for more than half of my life by then.

Warning: One more 'asshole' comment from you and you'll be excluded!

LOL....The "don't be an asshole" comment was the answer to your question about what the story was teaching children, dinkelberry.

 

[Meriweather]

You say that you are 'all in' on discussing the lessons of the great flood and Noah's ark, but you don't help me to understand 1, the justice, and 2. the lesson in a new beginning.

Note the format of the story. The author describes the mind of God which is beyond human understanding, so we are reading what conclusions mankind made about the cause of the flood. Take any great disaster. Human beings have this habit of looking back on what they had been doing and what they could have been doing better.

This was not a current day by day account of an event as it happened. It was a description looking back over the event once it was past.

Look at the numbers the author used. Seven is often used to denote completeness; it is a number associated with God. Forty is often used to signify change, renewal, new beginnings. The height of the three decks were the same height as the three levels of the temple. In architecture, this symbolized the underworld, the earth, the heavens.

Based on the story, people weren't throwing up their hands wailing about God killing babies. People weren't arguing whether the flood was local or planet-wide. The story presents a picture of reassurance.

The past was complete and God was in charge. God's ark was there for the salvation of the underworld, the earth, and the heavens. The flood was a time of renewal and for new beginnings. Those who had died in the flood (the underworld) were safe. Those who had survived the flood (but had little) were safe. And the heavens were also safe.

Back then, words were seen to have power, and this power was being misused, leading mankind into disaster. There was one man who listened to God, but did not speak...not until after the flood. And the most righteous of men also brought with him the brokenness of mankind. When Noah finally speaks, it is a curse which causes division on earth....And so we begin again. The themes of the story:

1. Salvation for all (those in the underworld, those on earth, those in heaven)
2. New beginnings
3. Words have power so take care

We can't get any of this from the King James English. We need to study the Hebrew and what Jewish Rabbis have to say about the account. We certainly can't ascertain the meaning of this story by studying modern science and listening to what scientists are saying about the possibility (or impossibility) of a planet-wide flood.