Zone1 Have to now ask Trinitarians and Jehovah Witnesses

[Meriweather]

What is incorrect? Your creeds state this. Just ask a minister or one of your priests. Based on the Nicene creed you believe the three are one person manifested three different ways.
Do you believe the three are separate distinct individuals? If so, you agree with LDS doctrine and not Catholic doctrine. So, go ahead and explain yourself.

No Catholic creed includes "shape changers."

The Trinity is three distinct persons/personages, but not in the way Webster defines person when it is used to described humans. As I mentioned earlier, the Church sees/teaches Trinity as the working of God's intellect--again which is very different from ours. We see God as Creator; as Son (Word/Savior); as Advocate. All--though distinct in their own right--are aspects of God. Father/Son/Holy Spirit are all (every aspect of God) working together, working as One, being One, One Being.

So, no, I do not agree with LDS doctrine. That is yet a second ridiculous statement, on par with stating the Catholic Church views God as "shape changers".

 

[Cougarbear]

No Catholic creed includes "shape changers."

The Trinity is three distinct persons/personages, but not in the way Webster defines person when it is used to described humans. As I mentioned earlier, the Church sees/teaches Trinity as the working of God's intellect--again which is very different from ours. We see God as Creator; as Son (Word/Savior); as Advocate. All--though distinct in their own right--are aspects of God. Father/Son/Holy Spirit are all (every aspect of God) working together, working as One, being One, One Being.

So, no, I do not agree with LDS doctrine. That is yet a second ridiculous statement, on par with stating the Catholic Church views God as "shape changers".

How is what you are saying , the way you are saying it, different from LDS doctrine? What do you think three separate personages one in purpose and agreement means? Same thing you are saying. All except the very last thing you wrote, “One Being.” You contradict yourself. First they are separate beings and then one being. Which is it? Joseph Smith’s experience and vision simply clarified that confusion.

 

[surada]

How is what you are saying , the way you are saying it, different from LDS doctrine? What do you think three separate personages one in purpose and agreement means? Same thing you are saying. All except the very last thing you wrote, “One Being.” You contradict yourself. First they are separate beings and then one being. Which is it? Joseph Smith’s experience and vision simply clarified that confusion.

Kolob - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[surada]

Kolob is a star or planet that appears in the Book of Abraham, a sacred text in the Latter Day Saint movement.

In the book, Kolob is described as the heavenly body closest to God's throne and is said to govern other "governing creations". Abraham learns of Kolob through revelation in Abraham 3:2-3 and 9.

Kolob is a star or planet described in the Book of Abraham, a sacred text of the Latter Day Saint movement.

Several Latter Day Saint denominations hold the Book of Abraham to have been translated from an Egyptian papyrus scroll (which was actually a copy of the Egyptian funerary texts) by Joseph Smith, the founder of the movement. According to this work, Kolob is the heavenly body nearest to the throne of God.

While the Book of Abraham calls Kolob a "star", it also calls planets "stars", and therefore some Latter Day Saint commentators consider Kolob a planet.]The body also appears in Latter Day Saint culture, including a reference to Kolob in an LDS hymn.

 

[Meriweather]

How is what you are saying , the way you are saying it, different from LDS doctrine? What do you think three separate personages one in purpose and agreement means? Same thing you are saying. All except the very last thing you wrote, “One Being.” You contradict yourself. First they are separate beings and then one being. Which is it? Joseph Smith’s experience and vision simply clarified that confusion.

I did not say they were separate beings. I said they were distinct personages of One being. Do you note how you change words both in scripture and in what others say to try and make some garbled point of your own? Catholic teaching, Biblical teaching, Early Church teaching is adamant: One God. One in Being with the Father.

You change attributes of God to "Godhead" (like it is comparable to a two or more people in a united committee); change One to "both"; and then tell me, I agree with LDS teaching, when I am absolutely clear that I do not.

 

[Cougarbear]

Kolob - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

We aren’t talking about Kolob.

 

[Cougarbear]

I did not say they were separate beings. I said they were distinct personages of One being. Do you note how you change words both in scripture and in what others say to try and make some garbled point of your own? Catholic teaching, Biblical teaching, Early Church teaching is adamant: One God. One in Being with the Father.

You change attributes of God to "Godhead" (like it is comparable to a two or more people in a united committee); change One to "both"; and then tell me, I agree with LDS teaching, when I am absolutely clear that I do not.

That’s shape shifting! One being manifesting itself as three distinct personages to be seen differently depending upon the message that is to be given. Chistians call it Three in One. The scriptures don’t agree with the Nicene creed. Onefour1 and I have given many examples.

 

[surada]

Protestants don't read the maccabees. That part of the reason they get Daniel wrong.

Old Testament
In 2 Maccabees 12:42, Judah Maccabee and his men pray for the sins of fallen comrades who were wearing pagan amulets. The book of Maccabees is part of the Deuterocanonical books, also known as the Septuagint.

 

[surada]

We aren’t talking about Kolob.

Kolob is just as outrageous...as praying for the dead or accusing catholic of being shape shifters.

 

[Meriweather]

How is what you are saying , the way you are saying it, different from LDS doctrine? What do you think three separate personages one in purpose and agreement means? Same thing you are saying. All except the very last thing you wrote, “One Being.” You contradict yourself. First they are separate beings and then one being. Which is it? Joseph Smith’s experience and vision simply clarified that confusion.

The Catholic faith came first. Are you saying that the LDS faith is in agreement with the Catholic teaching of Trinity--that they changed nothing? The LDS faith points to Catholic dogma on the Trinity? You can't have this both ways. You are either saying the LDS faith is totally in agreement with Catholic teaching on God and Trinity, or that there is a disagreement.

God is Spirit, and therefore we have been given a peek into the intellect of God. When humans have a child, there are two separate beings, two separate intellects. Not so with God. The intellect of God now includes the Son without the Son being a separate being. The intellect is the same with both, nothing is lost of both having it. A love grows, breathes between them, and this is spiration is the Holy Spirit and it proceeds from both. Neither lose anything because this Spirit is One with God.

Human children of human parents have separate bodies, separate minds, separate spirits/souls. This is not so with God. Father-Son-Holy Spirit remain One--though distinct, they do not become separate entities.

 

[JoeB131]

Don’t know them.

Hey, their just as imaginary as your sky pixie.

 

[Cougarbear]

Kolob is just as outrageous...as praying for the dead or accusing catholic of being shape shifters.

Why is Kolob outrageous? It may not be a star we can see. It may be in another dimension. Not anything specific about it. But, why would it be outrageous for God to have a Celestial Home?

 

[Cougarbear]

The Catholic faith came first. Are you saying that the LDS faith is in agreement with the Catholic teaching of Trinity--that they changed nothing? The LDS faith points to Catholic dogma on the Trinity? You can't have this both ways. You are either saying the LDS faith is totally in agreement with Catholic teaching on God and Trinity, or that there is a disagreement.

God is Spirit, and therefore we have been given a peek into the intellect of God. When humans have a child, there are two separate beings, two separate intellects. Not so with God. The intellect of God now includes the Son without the Son being a separate being. The intellect is the same with both, nothing is lost of both having it. A love grows, breathes between them, and this is spiration is the Holy Spirit and it proceeds from both. Neither lose anything because this Spirit is One with God.

Human children of human parents have separate bodies, separate minds, separate spirits/souls. This is not so with God. Father-Son-Holy Spirit remain One--though distinct, they do not become separate entities.

"The last shall be first and the first shall be last." Thus saith the Lord. So, no problem with you being first.
I said that the first part of your explanation was in line with LDS teachings. But, then, you ended with something that is not by going back to "One Being." You first said there are 3 separate beings and then ended saying there is only one being. And, I called you on it. Don't try to twist it. Which is it? 3 separate beings or one being?

It's like with you, God is so big he fills the universe and yet he's so small he can dwell in our hearts. Nonsense. Now, The Holy Ghost is a spirit. But, Jesus has a resurrected physical body of his spirit body and physical body. Remember when Mary saw him but he told her not to touch him because he was still only a spirit and had not ascended back to His Father and His resurrection? Now, there is no indication in the Bible if Father in Heaven also has a resurrected body. But, I'm going to side with Joseph Smith on this as he saw the Father and Son and found out. You have not. And, I'll side because of that that "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become." Until you or your Popes have a vision otherwise, I'll go with the Prophet of the Restoration of the Church in these the Latter Days.

And, for your last paragraph, the One changes shapes from Father to Son and back again. Sometimes, as a spirit ghost as well. Uh, no. I'll reject that as mystical nonsense. There is no Trinity like that in the Bible. Anything but.

 

[Cougarbear]

The Catholic faith came first. Are you saying that the LDS faith is in agreement with the Catholic teaching of Trinity--that they changed nothing? The LDS faith points to Catholic dogma on the Trinity? You can't have this both ways. You are either saying the LDS faith is totally in agreement with Catholic teaching on God and Trinity, or that there is a disagreement.

God is Spirit, and therefore we have been given a peek into the intellect of God. When humans have a child, there are two separate beings, two separate intellects. Not so with God. The intellect of God now includes the Son without the Son being a separate being. The intellect is the same with both, nothing is lost of both having it. A love grows, breathes between them, and this is spiration is the Holy Spirit and it proceeds from both. Neither lose anything because this Spirit is One with God.

Human children of human parents have separate bodies, separate minds, separate spirits/souls. This is not so with God. Father-Son-Holy Spirit remain One--though distinct, they do not become separate entities.

Let me also point out another time in the New Testament where Jesus said he was not a spirit.
Luke 24:36-40, "And as they spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet."
According to you, he shifted from a spirit Father to a resurrected human and ate with them. LOL! Like magic!!! It's not magic. It's simple logic and reasoning with scientific reason we don't understand yet. But, we will.

 

[Meriweather]

That’s shape shifting! One being manifesting itself as three distinct personages to be seen differently depending upon the message that is to be given. Chistians call it Three in One. The scriptures don’t agree with the Nicene creed. Onefour1 and I have given many examples.

Sigh. The message doesn't change. Again, note what you do. You changed what was said to say something else--and then claim the argument against the original was successful.

 

[Meriweather]

"The last shall be first and the first shall be last." Thus saith the Lord. So, no problem with you being first.

Except, we're using two very different definitions of the word "first." Look it up.

I said that the first part of your explanation was in line with LDS teachings. But, then, you ended with something that is not by going back to "One Being." You first said there are 3 separate beings and then ended saying there is only one being. And, I called you on it. Don't try to twist it. Which is it? 3 separate beings or one being?

Again, note that you had to change what I actually said. I did not say there are three separate being. I said three different personages, and noted these personages are not defined as Webster defines human personages. I noted a peek into the intellect of God.

Hopefully I won't have to keep calling you on changing words and also using alternate definitions.

 

[Meriweather]

It's like with you, God is so big he fills the universe and yet he's so small he can dwell in our hearts. Nonsense. Now, The Holy Ghost is a spirit. But, Jesus has a resurrected physical body of his spirit body and physical body. Remember when Mary saw him but he told her not to touch him because he was still only a spirit and had not ascended back to His Father and His resurrection? Now, there is no indication in the Bible if Father in Heaven also has a resurrected body. But, I'm going to side with Joseph Smith on this as he saw the Father and Son and found out. You have not. And, I'll side because of that that "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become." Until you or your Popes have a vision otherwise, I'll go with the Prophet of the Restoration of the Church in these the Latter Days.

So you go with Joseph Smith, especially if you feel you were advised to do this. I prayed about it (age 14) and was told I was not to.

 

[Meriweather]

And, for your last paragraph, the One changes shapes from Father to Son and back again. Sometimes, as a spirit ghost as well.

Completely wrong and incorrect.

Uh, no. I'll reject that as mystical nonsense. There is no Trinity like that in the Bible. Anything but.

Quite right--your presentation of Trinity and your claim of how others present Trinity is in error, completely inaccurate.

 

[Meriweather]

Let me also point out another time in the New Testament where Jesus said he was not a spirit.
Luke 24:36-40, "And as they spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet."
According to you, he shifted from a spirit Father to a resurrected human and ate with them. LOL! Like magic!!! It's not magic. It's simple logic and reasoning with scientific reason we don't understand yet. But, we will.

Unbelievable. No, not "according to me" because I've said no such thing. Therefore I think it best we conclude this discussion. Peace.

 

[Cougarbear]

Sigh. The message doesn't change. Again, note what you do. You changed what was said to say something else--and then claim the argument against the original was successful.

I'm not doing the changing. You are.