Zone1 Christendom's Trinity - Where Did It Come From?

[Alter2Ego]

Although Trinity is the most important doctrine within most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations, Trinitarians ignore the following facts:



1. There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible in support of the dogma of a 3-in-1 god, in which there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that are co-equal and co-eternal.

2. Neither Jesus Christ nor his disciples of the 1st century AD promoted the teaching that there are three persons within a "godhead," all of whom are co-equal and co-eternal.

3. Trinity did not become official Christian teaching until the 4th century AD, some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and returned to heavenly life, and some 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written.


It would surprise some that there were trinity gods throughout the pagan world for centuries before the idea of a 3-in-1 god was adopted by Christendom. Below are four such examples:


A. In the 2nd century BCE (two centuries before Jesus Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. In the 2nd century B.C.E., Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


D. Even the Hindus in India have their own trinity of gods, as follows: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, and (3) Shiva.



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?



2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?



3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

 

[Meriweather]

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's

Scripture discusses Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the three personas of One God.

2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?

Jesus has two natures: Fully divine and fully human. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work in unison to accomplish the will of God.

3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

It benefited the Roman emperors to have a united front in all aspects of government and society, which at that time included religion. It's a matter of having the people coming together and working together. They were told to resolve their differences.

 

[task0778]

I never did understand the concept of a Holy Ghost. What is that anyway?

 

[Alter2Ego]

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?

Scripture discusses Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the three personas of One God.

Meriweather:

Discussing three different entities does not equate to "they are the same god." Next you will be telling the rest of us that the mentioning of you, your biological father, and a possession of your biological within the same sentence equates to all three of you are the same human being.

Make it make sense.

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?

Jesus has two natures: Fully divine and fully human. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work in unison to accomplish the will of God.

Meriweather:

Scripture repeatedly refers to Jesus as "son of man," while he was on earth. At no time, while on earth in human form, was he "divine." Of course, if you don't agree with that, be sure and present scripture that confirms Jesus was "fully divine and fully human" during his 33 years on planet earth.

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

It benefited the Roman emperors to have a united front in all aspects of government and society, which at that time included religion. It's a matter of having the people coming together and working together. They were told to resolve their differences.

Correct. You got one out of three right, Meriweather.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I never did understand the concept of a Holy Ghost. What is that anyway?

task0778:

The Holy Ghost aka Holy Spirit is Jehovah God's power or active force that he uses to get things done. In other words, the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is a possession of Almighty God. It is something, not someone.

 

[zaangalewa]

Although Trinity is the most important doctrine within most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations, Trinitarians ignore the following facts:

What a luck that I'm a Christian so I can ignore now the following "facts". Thanks, thanks and thanks ... and thanks to you too. But are you sure "trinity" is really the most important doctrine of the one and only true church?

1. There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible in support of the dogma of a 3-in-1 god, in which there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that are co-equal and co-eternal.

2. Neither Jesus Christ nor his disciples of the 1st century AD promoted the teaching that there are three persons within a "godhead," all of whom are co-equal and co-eternal.

3. Trinity did not become official Christian teaching until the 4th century AD, some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and returned to heavenly life, and some 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written.


It would surprise some that there were trinity gods throughout the pagan world for centuries before the idea of a 3-in-1 god was adopted by Christendom. Below are four such examples:


A. In the 2nd century BCE (two centuries before Jesus Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. In the 2nd century B.C.E., Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


D. Even the Hindus in India have their own trinity of gods, as follows: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, and (3) Shiva.



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?



2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?



3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

 

[zaangalewa]

I never did understand the concept of a Holy Ghost. What is that anyway?

Ask him in whatever language or way you like to ask him - he will answer (not only Christians or holy people of other religions) ... "unfortunatelly" (=fortunatelly) sometimes in ways which are not so easy to understand. So take your time and learn to listen.



Jesus, give me your life -
I'll give you mine in return!
Jesus, I will never give up
all the way to heaven's door.

Jesus, give me blood [blood often also means "spirit" in older textes]
before the sun kills me!
Jesus, give me blood
before the day begins,
before the day begins!

Please let me in
into your heavenly kingdom,
I am passing away!
With a bit of luck
we'll go crazy, [also in sense of "we will be taken up to heaven"]
with a little luck! [luck and happiness are the same word in German]
Yeah,

Jesus, we are the heroes -
It's possible, you just have to want it.
Jesus, don't be such a coward,
we'll show the world,
we'll prove it to the world!

Please let me in
into your heavenly kingdom,
I'll pass away!
With a bit of luck
we'll go crazy,
with a little luck!
Yeah,

Jesus, we are the heroes -
It's possible, you just have to want it.
Jesus, don't be such a coward,
we'll show the world,
we'll prove it to the world!
We'll prove it to the world!
We'll prove it to the world!
We'll prove it to the world!
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
We're gonna prove it to the world!
Yeeaah!

 

[Meriweather]

Meriweather:

Discussing three different entities does not equate to "they are the same god." Next you will be telling the rest of us that the mentioning of you, your biological father, and a possession of your biological within the same sentence equates to all three of you are the same human being.

Make it make sense.

Alter2Ego

You see three where there is only one Essence. Roughly speaking, everything in existence makes images of itself. In humanity, we see ourselves, through communication, producing images of what is in our minds. Basically, the image of ourselves in a mirror is incomplete, because that image lacks the ability to communicate, so it is not a complete image of oneself.

What we say is an imperfect image of what is in our own mind. The mirror is an imperfect image of one's entire being or essence. God is love. God is being, and on a much higher level creates an image of Himself as everything does, down to a rock, down further into sub-atomic particles. The difference is God's image of Himself is complete, and so we have the Son. God is love and so we have complete love between Father and Son communicated perfectly through Spirit, all of the same Essence.

Go back to your own mirror image. Are there two complete people? No, the image is an imperfect image of you, it does not capture the entire essence of you. God's image of Himself captures His entire Essence, and so we have the Son, and the love which is part of God's essence communicating love between the other through the Spirit. Speaking of communication, it can be seen how the Son becomes the Word, as there is communication between Father, the Creator of His entire Essence, the Son. Communication occurs through the Spirit. One Essence...and the perfect Image as the Son, perfect, in its own right, and being perfect has his reality, always reflected and communicated and loved through the Spirit with the Father.

Amazing, isn't it. Shrug. I can guarantee that you are still determined to see three separate beings, not one. And when you do, think of a rock reflecting its image in the water, in the shadow of itself formed by the sun. Reflection, shadow...imperfect images. Think of One perfect God and His perfect image that is not twin, but image. The image of yourself in the mirror is not a twin. It's you, but it doesn't capture the entirety of you. Think of God and His perfect, entire image, which some describe as Trinity.

 

[Meriweather]

Meriweather:

Scripture repeatedly refers to Jesus as "son of man," while he was on earth. At no time, while on earth in human form, was he "divine." Of course, if you don't agree with that, be sure and present scripture that confirms Jesus was "fully divine and fully human" during his 33 years on planet earth.

Alter2Ego

Description: Son of man. (human nature)
Name: I AM. (divine nature)

Both in scripture.

 

[Meriweather]

Correct. You got one out of three right, Meriweather.

I got them all right and all imperfect. The reason for this is that God doesn't fit into a box of human creation. Think about it. Have you ever felt boxed in by people who try to fit you into their box? You always break out, right? God does not fit into our boxes, either. He is always breaking out. He can even break out of the human concept of image, but it's another way of describing one Essence. You may have heard the analogy with water: Water can be vapor, liquid, solid, but it has one essence. The analogy of image (I think) works even better, because everything--even water--has an image of itself, right down to sub-atomic particles.

 

[zaangalewa]

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible? ...

You have here two serios problems. The minor problem: the word "Jehova" not really exists in the bible. It is a combination with the name of god - which I speak not out in respect for the Jewish religion as Pope Benedict XVI suggested to do - and the word "adonai" (="Lord"). The word "Jehova" for g'd is in best case a very bad translation. You could read "Lord" and think about g'd. But the word 'Jehova' never existed really.

The second problem - a much bigger problem - is it not to know what Jesus said and how to baptize His children.

2. ...

Study the Athanasian creed.

3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene? ...

Perhaps you should asks the Holy Spirit for to find this out? But because you asked "me" - without to know who I am and why I am answering - let me give you an answer which is as old as are the Greek original texts of the New Testament. Nowhere in these texts will you see a reference to the appearance of the most important man of the Christian religion, although there should be tonnes of gossip about the appearance of Christ. Today are existing tonnes of gossip in this direction - but nothing of it is biblical. I think the reason is: The first Christians saw in Jesus a godly entity.

 

[alang1216]

Although Trinity is the most important doctrine within most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations, Trinitarians ignore the following facts:



1. There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible in support of the dogma of a 3-in-1 god, in which there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that are co-equal and co-eternal.

2. Neither Jesus Christ nor his disciples of the 1st century AD promoted the teaching that there are three persons within a "godhead," all of whom are co-equal and co-eternal.

3. Trinity did not become official Christian teaching until the 4th century AD, some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and returned to heavenly life, and some 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written.


It would surprise some that there were trinity gods throughout the pagan world for centuries before the idea of a 3-in-1 god was adopted by Christendom. Below are four such examples:


A. In the 2nd century BCE (two centuries before Jesus Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. In the 2nd century B.C.E., Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


D. Even the Hindus in India have their own trinity of gods, as follows: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, and (3) Shiva.



QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?



2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?



3. Why did it take two Roman Emperors/politicians, neither of whom were Christians, to enforce the official Trinity dogma some 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene?

In the early Christian churches (plural!) there was a wide range of theologies regarding Jesus (and just about every other aspect of being Christian). Some viewed him as fully human, some viewed him as fully divine. The trinity was an way of bringing together the different views of Jesus and uniting the various Christian sects.

 

[BreezeWood]

similar to the false claim by moses of heavenly commandments to incorporate heavenly personification for judaism and himself jesus would never make such a claim to vanity ... the accusations made by judaism.

the trinity is used rather by the 4th century crucifiers who wrote the christian bible to incorporate heavenly, irrefutable legitimacy for their purposes using jesus the same and having nothing to do with the 1st century events those people gave their lives for - liberation theology, self determination deliberately not that of false religious dogma.

 

[Woodznutz]

What a luck that I'm a Christian so I can ignore now the following "facts". Thanks, thanks and thanks ... and thanks to you too. But are you sure "trinity" is really the most important doctrine of the one and only true church?

The Nicene Creed (from the Council of Nicaea, A.D. 325) insists that Christians accept the Trinity, else you are not a Christian. That's pretty important.

 

[Woodznutz]

The Nicene Creed (from the Council of Nicaea) insists that Christians accept the Trinity, else you are not a Christian. That's pretty important.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Although Trinity is the most important doctrine within most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations, Trinitarians ignore the following facts:

What a luck that I'm a Christian so I can ignore now the following "facts". Thanks, thanks and thanks ... and thanks to you too. But are you sure "trinity" is really the most important doctrine of the one and only true church?

zaangalewa:

I suggest that you go back and read my opening post again. No where in it did I state that the trinity doctrine belongs to "the one and only true church." I specifically said it's the most important doctrine in most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations.

 

[Alter2Ego]

You see three where there is only one Essence. Roughly speaking, everything in existence makes images of itself. In humanity, we see ourselves, through communication, producing images of what is in our minds. Basically, the image of ourselves in a mirror is incomplete, because that image lacks the ability to communicate, so it is not a complete image of oneself.

What we say is an imperfect image of what is in our own mind. The mirror is an imperfect image of one's entire being or essence. God is love. God is being, and on a much higher level creates an image of Himself as everything does, down to a rock, down further into sub-atomic particles. The difference is God's image of Himself is complete, and so we have the Son. God is love and so we have complete love between Father and Son communicated perfectly through Spirit, all of the same Essence.

Go back to your own mirror image. Are there two complete people? No, the image is an imperfect image of you, it does not capture the entire essence of you. God's image of Himself captures His entire Essence, and so we have the Son, and the love which is part of God's essence communicating love between the other through the Spirit. Speaking of communication, it can be seen how the Son becomes the Word, as there is communication between Father, the Creator of His entire Essence, the Son. Communication occurs through the Spirit. One Essence...and the perfect Image as the Son, perfect, in its own right, and being perfect has his reality, always reflected and communicated and loved through the Spirit with the Father.

Amazing, isn't it. Shrug. I can guarantee that you are still determined to see three separate beings, not one. And when you do, think of a rock reflecting its image in the water, in the shadow of itself formed by the sun. Reflection, shadow...imperfect images. Think of One perfect God and His perfect image that is not twin, but image. The image of yourself in the mirror is not a twin. It's you, but it doesn't capture the entirety of you. Think of God and His perfect, entire image, which some describe as Trinity.

Meriweather:

Until you can quote scripture and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse to support your above claims, I will consider your above comments a non-answer to the questions that I posed in my OP.

Alter2Ego

 

[Meriweather]

Meriweather:

Until you can quote scripture and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse to support your above claims, I will consider your above comments a non-answer to the questions that I posed in my OP.

I favor handing out the entire Bible, not proof-texts. It's not a non-answer as you know, but I get what you are saying--i.e., that it doesn't change your mind one whit about Trinity, which is great with me. I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but to offer an explanation why most Christian denominations do not agree with another denomination's translations/interpretations.