Zone1 Have to now ask Trinitarians and Jehovah Witnesses

[JoeB131]

So, why are you responding? Funny how atheists and spiritual phonies respond and Christians and JWs won’t except to try and Bible bash changing subjects. That’s because when they really think about this they realize the three are separate distinct personages and all God.

I'm not sure if there are any JW's on this board.

Hey, I'm an ex-Catholic, so let's take a stab at it. The first question is, "Does God the Son" exist before the life of Jesus? Was he just waiting around to be Jesus for 30 years before returning to the Godhead?" The notion of Jesus is that he lived among humans to finally better understand us. We have to assume God the Father was still up in heaven taking care of the God Business.

The Holy Spirit is the part of God that lives inside all of us. In Catholicism, that was supposed to happen after our Confirmation, I think, but I didn't feel any different.

 

[Cougarbear]

Mormonism? Because it's an established historical fact that Joseph Smith was a Con Man.

No it’s not.

 

[Cougarbear]

I'm not sure if there are any JW's on this board.

Hey, I'm an ex-Catholic, so let's take a stab at it. The first question is, "Does God the Son" exist before the life of Jesus? Was he just waiting around to be Jesus for 30 years before returning to the Godhead?" The notion of Jesus is that he lived among humans to finally better understand us. We have to assume God the Father was still up in heaven taking care of the God Business.

The Holy Spirit is the part of God that lives inside all of us. In Catholicism, that was supposed to happen after our Confirmation, I think, but I didn't feel any different.

When Jesus was baptized, Father in heaven spoke from heaven. So, yes Father was still in heaven. He sent his son Jehovah to become Jesus redeemer of Israel.
The Holy Ghost can live in us. However, to be with us at all times, it has to be given by the laying on of hands by one with authority. No Catholic priest has that authority and that’s why you didn’t feel different.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Colossians 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the GODHEAD bodily."
There are many versus throughout the Bible both old and new testaments that says there is One God. Why is it that Trinitarians and Jehovah Witnesses together believe the word "ONE" refers to the number and not the unity of purpose and actions? Godhead means more than one personage. But, it also means the 3 personages of the GODHEAD are unified in purpose as one in purpose. So, why can "ONE GOD" not have three separate personages, Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Good point. I believe that the Hebrew Bible refers to a Godhead comprised of all of the heavenly angels or "holy spirits", a.k.a.elohim. I believe there's a hierarchy in the Kingdom of YHWH. YHWH isn't one person, but a community of powers. If He is a person, then He is an emergent reality from that community. YHWH the person, emerges from the community of faith. The fabric or material of YHWH's personhood and consciousness is the individual faith, consciousness, and actions of the community.

I believe the Hebrew Bible is a record of the interactions between advanced ETs and ancient Israelites.

 

[onefour1]

Not at all.

Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud in NY State in 1825.

He was not even brought before the court until 1826 so 1825 is a con. Whether he was ever convicted of anything is questionable because those who have claimed to know contradict each other. For a detailed account of the trial see The 1826 Trial of Joseph Smith.

Varying accounts of the verdict:

VERDICT​

Let’s look at the verdict:

1. Benton: tried and condemned … designedly allowed to escape
2. Cowdery: honorably acquitted
3. Noble: was condemned, took leg bail
4. Marshall: guilty?
5. Tuttle: guilty?
6. Purple: discharged
7. Constable De Zeng: not a trial

He was involved in the Kirtland Bank scandal in Ohio in 1837.

There was no scandal.

"Ultimately, the bank failed because of the economic upheaval created by the nationwide financial panic – called the Panic of 1837 – that resulted in banks across the nation failing, land values falling, and debts being called in. The Panic of 1837 caused an economic decline that would lead to years of economic depression in the United States. This panic and resulting depression were catastrophic and are analogous to the Great Depression of the twentieth century. It was this financial panic that devastated the Kirtland economy, and not the failure of the bank. While many in Kirtland experienced some financial loss as a result of the bank’s failure, the community’s economy and individual church members’ finances were far more drastically affected by plummeting land values. Although many detractors then and now have held Joseph Smith personally responsible for the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society and downturn of the Kirtland economy, these were complex events for which Joseph was not individually responsible." from:

Finances and Faith in the Kirtland Crisis of 1837​

His followers were run out of Missouri in 1838 after inciting armed insurrection.

NO! They were run out of Missouri because of hatred and the governor of Missouri even executed an extermination order on all Mormons.

Why Were the Saints Driven from Missouri in the Fall of 1838?​

Then there was his attempt to shut down a newspaper in IL for exposing his polygamy. That's when people just got fed up and shot him.

The city council gave the order an Joseph Smith, as mayor, had the order executed. So it was legal to shut down the newspaper but it was not legal to destroy the press. Joseph Smith was willing to pay for the damages to the press.

Did Joseph Smith violate the law by ordering the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed?​

So I think you have most of your historical facts bassackward.

 

[Cougarbear]

Good point. I believe that the Hebrew Bible refers to a Godhead comprised of all of the heavenly angels or "holy spirits", a.k.a.elohim. I believe there's a hierarchy in the Kingdom of YHWH. YHWH isn't one person, but a community of powers. If He is a person, then He is an emergent reality from that community. YHWH the person, emerges from the community of faith. The fabric or material of YHWH's personhood and consciousness is the individual faith, consciousness, and actions of the community.

I believe the Hebrew Bible is a record of the interactions between advanced ETs and ancient Israelites.

Aside for that last paragraph, Jehovah is one of Father in Heaven’s spirit children. He reached status of Lord God in our pre earth life. And we followed him to this earth to receive bodies so that we can eventually be resurrected with our Elder brother, Jesus (Jehovah).

 

[TruthNotBS]

Aside for that last paragraph, Jehovah is one of Father in Heaven’s spirit children. He reached status of Lord God in our pre earth life. And we followed him to this earth to receive bodies so that we can eventually be resurrected with our Elder brother, Jesus (Jehovah).

That sounds like Mormonism. I find LDS theology, with its spiritualized materialism, quite interesting. I'm an agnostic atheist, but I study religion. I believe that the paranormal is real, because I've experienced it.

 

[Cougarbear]

That sounds like Mormonism. I find LDS theology, with its spiritualized materialism, quite interesting. I'm an agnostic atheist, but I study religion. I believe that the paranormal is real, because I've experienced it.

I experienced it and that’s why I know Jesus is the Father’s Son. And, prayers were answered that lead me to the Church.

 

[rampart]

Not at all.

Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud in NY State in 1825.
He was involved in the Kirtland Bank scandal in Ohio in 1837.
His followers were run out of Missouri in 1838 after inciting armed insurrection.
Then there was his attempt to shut down a newspaper in IL for exposing his polygamy. That's when people just got fed up and shot him.

that trial was rigged! perhaps they prefer "charlatan"

 

[JoeB131]

When Jesus was baptized, Father in heaven spoke from heaven. So, yes Father was still in heaven. He sent his son Jehovah to become Jesus redeemer of Israel.
The Holy Ghost can live in us. However, to be with us at all times, it has to be given by the laying on of hands by one with authority. No Catholic priest has that authority and that’s why you didn’t feel different.

So by that logic, Jesus isn't God. (Not that I think he was, anyway.)

No it’s not.

Yes, he was, for the reasons I listed.

 

[JoeB131]

He was not even brought before the court until 1826 so 1825 is a con. Whether he was ever convicted of anything is questionable because those who have claimed to know contradict each other. For a detailed account of the trial see

He ran away from the state before a verdict was decided on... That's what guilty people do.

There was no scandal.

"Ultimately, the bank failed because of the economic upheaval created by the nationwide financial panic – called the Panic of 1837 –

Um, no, the bank failed because Smith got stupid people to invest their money by showing them strongboxes full of sand with a layer of coins spread across the top. And when people came back looking for their money, he didn't have it. The Panic of 37 was the trigger, to be sure, but it wouldn't have been a problem if he wasn't running a scam.

NO! They were run out of Missouri because of hatred and the governor of Missouri even executed an extermination order on all Mormons.

you say that like it's a bad thing.

Do you mean after Smith sent his Danite terror squads to harass the Gentile residents of Missouri?

The city council gave the order an Joseph Smith, as mayor, had the order executed. So it was legal to shut down the newspaper but it was not legal to destroy the press. Joseph Smith was willing to pay for the damages to the press.

We have a little thing called the First Amendment in this country. It's why Mayor Johnson can't have the Chicago Tribune shut down for criticizing him.

What Smith did was illegal, and it was to cover up the fact he was FUCKING FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD GIRLS.

What's the difference between Joseph Smith and David Koresh?

Original and Extra Crispy!

 

[Meriweather]

Colossians 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the GODHEAD bodily."

This passage in Colossians is arguing against astrology, the belief that the universe and the arrangement of stars and planets have power over us.

Note the King James use of the word ‘Godhead’ and word that did not come into use until after 1150. In the original Greek both theios
and theotes (used in Colossians 2:9) means divinity, but in an abstract way. More specifically it references not the single being, God, but the attributes of God, a single being.

There are many versus throughout the Bible both old and new testaments that says there is One God. Why is it that Trinitarians and Jehovah Witnesses together believe the word "ONE" refers to the number and not the unity of purpose and actions? Godhead means more than one personage. But, it also means the 3 personages of the GODHEAD are unified in purpose as one in purpose. So, why can "ONE GOD" not have three separate personages, Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Unlike the teachings of the LDS Church, where there are three people in a “Godhead” that are unified in purpose, Trinity teaches God is One.

With earthly life, ‘beget’ refers to the birth of a life separate from the life in the parents. God’s “only begotten son” is intellectual and can be seen more clearly when using the Word. The Father generated/begot the Word that went forth while also remaining in the Father. The Word did not go off on its own like it is seen in earthly offspring. The Father and the Son remained One. The love breathed out (spirated) between Father and Son generated the Holy Spirit, a spirit that still remains in the Father and the Son.

Father/Creator is one role/purpose of God. Word is a second role/purpose of God. The third role/purpose of God is Advocate, one who guides life towards goodness and truth in God.

With ‘Trinity’, humans are given a peek into the intellectual life of God. To us, this powerful being/intellect takes on the roles of distinct persons while still being One. Where one (or one purpose) is, so are all, or as we profess: One in being with the Father.

 

[Cougarbear]

So by that logic, Jesus isn't God. (Not that I think he was, anyway.)


Yes, he was, for the reasons I listed.

Nope, By the way, what makes a God, a God? It was Jesus (Jehovah) who organized the universe and earth. He also “Redeemed” us making him a Father to us by way of His atonement. He was the God Moses spoke face to face with, his spirit face.

 

[Cougarbear]

This passage in Colossians is arguing against astrology, the belief that the universe and the arrangement of stars and planets have power over us.

Note the King James use of the word ‘Godhead’ and word that did not come into use until after 1150. In the original Greek both theios
and theotes (used in Colossians 2:9) means divinity, but in an abstract way. More specifically it references not the single being, God, but the attributes of God, a single being.

Unlike the teachings of the LDS Church, where there are three people in a “Godhead” that are unified in purpose, Trinity teaches God is One.

With earthly life, ‘beget’ refers to the birth of a life separate from the life in the parents. God’s “only begotten son” is intellectual and can be seen more clearly when using the Word. The Father generated/begot the Word that went forth while also remaining in the Father. The Word did not go off on its own like it is seen in earthly offspring. The Father and the Son remained One. The love breathed out (spirated) between Father and Son generated the Holy Spirit, a spirit that still remains in the Father and the Son.

Father/Creator is one role/purpose of God. Word is a second role/purpose of God. The third role/purpose of God is Advocate, one who guides life towards goodness and truth in God.

With ‘Trinity’, humans are given a peek into the intellectual life of God. To us, this powerful being/intellect takes on the roles of distinct persons while still being One. Where one (or one purpose) is, so are all, or as we profess: One in being with the Father.

In the beginning, was God. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. The Father and Son were with each other and both were Gods. The question becomes why they both were Gods. “One” refers to “purpose and unity.” Not singular. Another word the NT uses is that the three “agree” as one or purpose. Not single beings. Godhead then refers to the three and there is no reason for magical interpretations of a shapeshifter.

 

[Meriweather]

In the beginning, was God. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. The Father and Son were with each other and both were Gods. The question becomes why they both were Gods. “One” refers to “purpose and unity.” Not singular. Another word the NT uses is that the three “agree” as one or purpose. Not single beings. Godhead then refers to the three and there is no reason for magical interpretations of a shapeshifter.

I said nothing about a "shapeshifter". Neither does the Bible. "Both" is the LDS interpretation. The Apostles and early Church Fathers were adamant: One God. Paul was specific...attributes of the Divine, the Deity/God. Over a thousand years later, Middle English, and King James used the word "Godhead" which, it appears, to those of the LDS faith, means more than one God, but one in purpose. That veers from the Biblical insistence of One God...there is no other.

 

[JoeB131]

Nope, By the way, what makes a God, a God? It was Jesus (Jehovah) who organized the universe and earth. He also “Redeemed” us making him a Father to us by way of His atonement. He was the God Moses spoke face to face with, his spirit face.

Okay, I just talked to Zeus, and Zeus said that was full of beans.

Then Amaterasu chimed in that she was the creator of the universe.

 

[Cougarbear]

I said nothing about a "shapeshifter". Neither does the Bible. "Both" is the LDS interpretation. The Apostles and early Church Fathers were adamant: One God. Paul was specific...attributes of the Divine, the Deity/God. Over a thousand years later, Middle English, and King James used the word "Godhead" which, it appears, to those of the LDS faith, means more than one God, but one in purpose. That veers from the Biblical insistence of One God...there is no other.

The Catholic and traditional Christian churches teach shapeshifing from the Father to the Son to the Holy Ghost back and forth. The voice, Jesus and the dove did it all at once too. It’s not LDS doctrine. It’s yours. And it doesn’t hold up to the Bible scriptures as I and Onefour1 have put out here. Our doctrine fits. One Godhead with three separate and distinct personages. “God” is a title and should be thought as “Godhead” as the Bible says. Just cause it was translated from a different word and language doesn’t change the meaning. That translated word means Godhead. And it’s more biblical than Catholicism.

 

[Cougarbear]

Okay, I just talked to Zeus, and Zeus said that was full of beans.

Then Amaterasu chimed in that she was the creator of the universe.

Don’t know them.

 

[Meriweather]

The Catholic and traditional Christian churches teach shapeshifing from the Father to the Son to the Holy Ghost back and forth.

Incorrect. If that is the LDS summation, it lacks accuracy, and therefore makes no sense to those who have studied Trinity.

 

[Cougarbear]

Incorrect. If that is the LDS summation, it lacks accuracy, and therefore makes no sense to those who have studied Trinity.

What is incorrect? Your creeds state this. Just ask a minister or one of your priests. Based on the Nicene creed you believe the three are one person manifested three different ways.
Do you believe the three are separate distinct individuals? If so, you agree with LDS doctrine and not Catholic doctrine. So, go ahead and explain yourself.