Zone1 Hebrews 1:8 says Jesus is God

[hobelim]

The answer to Psalms 2:7 is very simple. It can be that Father in Heaven is the Father of our spirits and we are His spirit children, which is true.

That's not an answer.

The degree of the Lord, "In this day I have begotten thee." was spoken to David.

 

[Cougarbear]

The Holy Spirit doesn't write lies on our hearts for sure, but the Holy Spirit isn't the only being in the Universe trying to influence us. And the immature, unwary, deniers, sometimes even the devout believers etc. are susceptible to believing untruths that those others are telling them.

Exactly! That's why the words matter so much. Looking at Revelation 3:21, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." there is two separate thrones. We and all the angels, in which we are, will be redeemed from the Father to the Son and we will sit at the right hand of the Son, which is at the right hand of the Father. Colossians 2:8 - 9, "8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The Godhead have bodies. Glorified bodies.

 

[Cougarbear]

That's not an answer.

The degree of the Lord, "In this day I have begotten thee." was spoken to David.

Of course it's the answer. You can't take a piece of a verse out of context with all the scriptures. It's obviously an answer since it's not circular. Now Psalms 2:7 is David hearing that the Lord is the Son of the Father.

 

[Foxfyre]

Exactly! That's why the words matter so much. Looking at Revelation 3:21, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." there is two separate thrones. We and all the angels, in which we are, will be redeemed from the Father to the Son and we will sit at the right hand of the Son, which is at the right hand of the Father. Colossians 2:8 - 9, "8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The Godhead have bodies. Glorified bodies.

Beautiful imagery. Most would be unable to understand it. I won't argue theology with anybody but I will share concepts and beliefs with those who are interested in doing that. I know many, if not most, Christians disagree with me that I don't think God cares all that much about our theology anyway but allows us to have it because it brings comfort to many. I think he is far more concerned with our relationship and attitude toward him and how we treat our fellow humans.

I do take strong exception to the truly evil people who try to destroy the faith of believers and I will say so. And I am grieved at all those who rejected a relationship with the living God because of the overly complicated or unattractive way God was introduced to them. For instance I don't know a soul who came to know Jesus by being told he/she was going to hell or he/she was following a 'false religion' or some such.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Cougarbear:

All of the angels are referred to as gods. And that's "god" with lower case g. So what's your point?


Alter2Ego

Nice try. No, they are not. And this God is not smaller case words anyway.

Actually, Cougarbear, I am correct. All of the heavenly angels are referred to as gods. Notice the scripture below which speaks of the assembly of angels.

"A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:" (Psalm 82:1 -- Berean Standard Bible)

Alter2Ego

 

[Carl in Michigan]

In my opinion, Jewish was a great Rabbi.

One you reject and call a liar

 

[Alter2Ego]

Cougarbear:

In addition, you've got it twisted by claiming the verse is saying the Father (Jehovah) says Jesus is to be caledl "God" with capital G. That's not what that verse is saying at all. Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation within a quotation that actually says the Father (Jehovah) is Jesus' God.

You are reading from Trinitarian Bible translation where the translators went to great pains to twist scripture.


Alter2Ego

Again, JWs are confused with their faulty translations. No, it’s the Father calling Jesus God. Lear as day.

Cougarbear, the confusion is yours and other members of Christendom who have the bad habit of cherry-picking words from entire chapters and ignoring the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

My understanding of what the scripture at Hebrews 1:8 is really saying has nothing whatever to do with the New World Translation published by Jehovah's Witnesses. It is because I'm paying attention to the context. I can read any version of the Bible, and the information will be identical, namely: Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation taken from elsewhere in the Bible, and the quoted portion does not apply to Jesus the son; instead, it applies to Jehovah the Father.

The context to Hebrews 1:8 -- that you have chosen to ignore -- is at verse 9. Notice below the Quotation of Hebrews 1:8 and 9 from the King James Version (a Trinitarian Bible translation). Keep your eyes on the quotation marks that I enlarged in red.


New King James Version
"{8} But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. {9} You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.“ (Hebrews 1:8-9)


Notice that verse 9 clearly says Jesus has a God who anointed Jesus. So since Jesus has a God over him, that can only mean one thing: Jesus is subservient to his God and therefore Jesus cannot also be equal to his God (the Father Jehovah) and be in a trinity with Jehovah the father in which they are the same god.


Keep that in mind, because I will now show you that Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quotation that applies to Jehovah the Father by quoting the original scripture where it was taken from. I will quote this time from another Trinitarian Bible translation.

"{46} Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness; {47} you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;" (Psalm 45:6-7 -- English Standard Version)

Notice how the exact same words at Psalm 45:6-7 match up with the words that are in the red quotation marks at Hebrews 1:8-9. Why? Because Hebrews 1:8-9 is merely quoting from Psalms 45:6-7.


Alter2Ego

 

[Eman623]

Revelation 3:21 ended the debate. We know from this and other verses like Hebrew 1:8 and Colossians 2:9 that both the Father and Son have their own thrones. Yet, Jesus also belongs to the Father's throne.

If it ended the debate then why did you start this thread to debate it?

Neither of those verses says what you want them to say. God and Jesus are not the same.

 

[Cougarbear]

Actually, Cougarbear, I am correct. All of the heavenly angels are referred to as gods. Notice the scripture below which speaks of the assembly of angels.

"A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:" (Psalm 82:1 -- Berean Standard Bible)

Alter2Ego

And, in verse 82 he says we are also all gods as well. Let me give you some of the light of Christ, we all descended from heaven as spirit children (angels) to receive an earthly physical body. So, yes, we are gods (angels). But, why "gods?" It's because we can return to Heavenly Father and receive or inherit all that he has. Just like Jesus Christ did. The other verses I and others have shared with you show that Jesus is God as well as Elohim the Father is God. Both have their own thrones and Jesus throne is at the right hand of the Father's throne. God's in purpose.

 

[Cougarbear]

Cougarbear, the confusion is yours and other members of Christendom who have the bad habit of cherry-picking words from entire chapters and ignoring the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

My understanding of what the scripture at Hebrews 1:8 is really saying has nothing whatever to do with the New World Translation published by Jehovah's Witnesses. It is because I'm paying attention to the context. I can read any version of the Bible, and the information will be identical, namely: Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation taken from elsewhere in the Bible, and the quoted portion does not apply to Jesus the son; instead, it applies to Jehovah the Father.

The context to Hebrews 1:8 -- that you have chosen to ignore -- is at verse 9. Notice below the Quotation of Hebrews 1:8 and 9 from the King James Version (a Trinitarian Bible translation). Keep your eyes on the quotation marks that I enlarged in red.


New King James Version
"{8} But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. {9} You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.“ (Hebrews 1:8-9)


Notice that verse 9 clearly says Jesus has a God who anointed Jesus. So since Jesus has a God over him, that can only mean one thing: Jesus is subservient to his God and therefore Jesus cannot also be equal to his God (the Father Jehovah) and be in a trinity with Jehovah the father in which they are the same god.


Keep that in mind, because I will now show you that Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quotation that applies to Jehovah the Father by quoting the original scripture where it was taken from. I will quote this time from another Trinitarian Bible translation.

"{46} Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness; {47} you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;" (Psalm 45:6-7 -- English Standard Version)

Notice how the exact same words at Psalm 45:6-7 match up with the words that are in the red quotation marks at Hebrews 1:8-9. Why? Because Hebrews 1:8-9 is merely quoting from Psalms 45:6-7.


Alter2Ego

Other verses in the Bible also show that there is a Godhead, meaning more than one called God. Verse 9 says two Gods. God and your God. Jesus is Jehovah, not the Father. Read the verses again with that in mind. "He says?" Who says? The Father is saying this to Jesus calling Jesus God. The Father is God too. Jesus is Jehovah with John 10:34 and Psalms 82:6. So, what is the name of the second God who is the Father? We have been told to call the Father, Elohim.

 

[Cougarbear]

If it ended the debate then why did you start this thread to debate it?

Neither of those verses says what you want them to say. God and Jesus are not the same.

You must be reading from a foreign bible. It certainly does say Jesus is God as well as the Father is God. Two Gods. Jesus has a throne and Father has a throne. Two separate thrones. It's the only conclusion you can make with Rev. 3:21. Unless you think John has a throne. Not yet, anyways.

 

[hobelim]

Of course it's the answer. You can't take a piece of a verse out of context with all the scriptures. It's obviously an answer since it's not circular. Now Psalms 2:7 is David hearing that the Lord is the Son of the Father.

No.

David is being told in that day that he was "begotten by God" which is the act of being "born again" into "the house of the Lord", and, like the resurrection, it is not about the resumption of a former existence, it is about the entry into a new existence, becoming a "living being", a child of the living God, a new creature walking the earth.

The verse has absolutely nothing to do with "the Lord is the Son of the Father". The term "Son of God" is just a relational metaphor that Jesus used indicating a closeness to and an intimate knowledge of God above that of other prophets who were called "servants of God", another relational metaphor, all are just representing men.

Jesus, a man, is the Messiah that Moses promised would be sent by God "To convey all his commands":

"I will "raise up" (from the dead) for them a prophet like you, (a man who spoke with God face to face), one of their one race, and I will put my words into his mouth. He shall convey all of my commands to them" Deut 18:18.

You are just wrong. Either you have made great errors in your own speculations or you have been misled yourself

That's the truth.

Is that too hard for a "believer" to believe?

 

[Eman623]

You must be reading from a foreign bible. It certainly does say Jesus is God as well as the Father is God. Two Gods. Jesus has a throne and Father has a throne. Two separate thrones. It's the only conclusion you can make with Rev. 3:21. Unless you think John has a throne. Not yet, anyways.

Two separate thrones implies two kings. Not one.

 

[BreezeWood]

Two separate thrones implies two kings. Not one.

the 1st century events and what jesus taught is - all in the heavens are equal ... by their judgment for admission to the everlasting, no evil is allowed.

 

[hobelim]

"A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:" (Psalm 82:1 -- Berean Standard Bible)

Alter2Ego

"God presides over the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods: JUDGES


“Watchers” are mentioned in the Bible in this chapter (Daniel 4:13,17,23). They are evidently synonymous with “the holy ones” who have come “down from heaven.” They seem to represent a certain category of angels in the Divine assembly, Elohim, (judges) were dispatched in this case to bring disciplinary judgment."


"The issue was determined by the watchers, Elohim (judges) the sentence declared by the holy ones, Elohim (judges) so the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all of the kingdoms on earth."

 

[Cougarbear]

No.

David is being told in that day that he was "begotten by God" which is the act of being "born again" into "the house of the Lord", and, like the resurrection, it is not about the resumption of a former existence, it is about the entry into a new existence, becoming a "living being", a child of the living God, a new creature walking the earth.

The verse has absolutely nothing to do with "the Lord is the Son of the Father". The term "Son of God" is just a relational metaphor that Jesus used indicating a closeness to and an intimate knowledge of God above that of other prophets who were called "servants of God", another relational metaphor, all are just representing men.

Jesus, a man, is the Messiah that Moses promised would be sent by God "To convey all his commands":

"I will "raise up" (from the dead) for them a prophet like you, (a man who spoke with God face to face), one of their one race, and I will put my words into his mouth. He shall convey all of my commands to them" Deut 18:18.

You are just wrong. Either you have made great errors in your own speculations or you have been misled yourself

That's the truth.

Is that too hard for a "believer" to believe?

It's funny. I agree with what you are saying concerning David. We hope he's been forgiven for the murder he committed. Not sure how you pay restitution for that but there are 3 degrees of heaven (glory). Aside from that, the debate is who is Jehovah and is he a God along with the Father. Or, is Jehovah the Father and there is no other son that is God. Within the verses discussed, there is also another lesson to be learned. To know better God. With all the verses stated in this thread, it's clear that Jesus is Jehovah, the Son of God and Messiah, of the Father. It's clear both are Gods. And, you will need to come up with another name for the Father and we have, Elohim, The Most High God.

In Duet. 18:18, why do you put in parenthesis (from the dead)? This individual doesn't have to be dead at all. "Raised up" is raised from his youth, "A Prophet." Jesus is not a "Prophet" of himself. Makes no sense. Perhaps this part is speaking during the last days right before the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. I know I don't necessarily go along with my Church on this, but when I read further, the Lord (Jehovah = Jesus) is speaking about this Prophet that he will put his knowledge into him. I think this is Joseph Smith, the Prophet who opened up this last dispensation of the fulness of time. But, this is my own opinion and we know that the scriptures are not for just your private interpretation.

 

[Cougarbear]

Two separate thrones implies two kings. Not one.

That's correct. Two God's, not one. And, the Holy Ghost makes three.

 

[BreezeWood]

That's correct. Two God's, not one. And, the Holy Ghost makes three.

those three are no different than any other members of the everlasting ... one being, one vote.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I meant to say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi

Can you name a Christian rabbi? A Hindu rabbi?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Two separate thrones implies two kings. Not one.

Jesus thone will be in Jerusalem when He returns. He will be in Jerusalem 1,000 years, after which the Father will come down to the New Earth after the Lake of Fire purifies the earth