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Get this clear about capitalism and socialism

Patrick2

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Capitalism is an economic system wherein the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated within the context of a free market, whereas in socialism the means of production and distribution are owned by the government, usually purportedly on behalf of workers.

Note that both these defionitions are ideal abstractions. No pure example of either system has ever existed. Let me give an analogy from geometry. (If you have trouble with the concept of analogies, please exit post. :rolleyes:)

A 'circle' is an abstract geometric concept - no circle has ever actually existed, only approximations to a circle, since in any actual "circle" there are always imperfections that depart from the definition of that locus of coplanar points all equidistant from a given point called the center.

All existing "capitalist" economies have all kinds of government control over the means of production, and government interference in markets (sometimes with disastrous results as with the 2008 financial near-collapse), likewise all socialist states depart from their ideal, as eg in countries like vietnam and cuba where the government allows small private entrepreneurship. When the departures from the respective abstractions become pervasive, it should be considered whether to continue to eg call a country capitalist, when it no longer is even a rough approximation to the abstraction.

Simply as a sort of "shorthand" way of speaking, people will refer to eg the US as having a capitalist system, and that's OK when everyone understands that it is "shorthand" for the real system. Where problems arise is when large scale problems arise from large scale government interference in markets, and people try to ascribe the problems to "capitalism". That has in fact happened over and over,
 

JoeB131

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Actually, there's a simplier way to understand the problem.

Both Capitalism and Socialism sound wonderful on Paper. It's when you get real human beings with all our flaws involved they end up being screwed up...
 

Moonglow

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what system is not flawed by human interaction?
 
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Thank you, fear mongered, brainwashed Cold War Dinosaur Ugly 'Merican Pub Dupe. The rest of the world knows you're talking about communism. Socialism is social democracy, what they have to call it to stop the dupes' heads from exploding.
Everyone else prefers stable growth social democracy to Mega rich Pubs' boom and bust screw the workers deregulated polluted ruined infrastructure incredibly expensive health care and college rat race. I guess you have guns and religion and ignorant hate though...Pub Dupes!!
 
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Patrick2

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The thrust of my post wasn't to disregard that flawed humans can screw up any system (note in this regard that it's an old marxist notion that humans are "perfectable", eg the soviet "New man" of the 1920s) but rather that people can either ignorantly or mischievously use the ambiguity in real world systems to blame one system for what are actually artifacts of the other system, eg, "capitalism" being blamed for bad results that are actually the result of the non-capitalist elements embedded within the american economic system.
 
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Patrick2

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Thank you, fear mongered, brainwashed Cold War Dinosaur Ugly 'Merican Pub Dupe. The rest of the world knows you're talking about communism. Socialism is social democracy, what they have to call it to stop the dupes' heads from exploding.
Everyone else prefers stable growth social democracy to Mega rich Pubs' boom and bust screw the workers deregulated polluted ruined infrastructure incredibly expensive health care and college rat race. I guess you have guns and religion and ignorant hate though...Pub Dupes!!

Uh, what do you say you take your spluttering imbecility to some other thread? :rolleyes:
 

Luissa

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Capitalism is an economic system wherein the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated within the context of a free market, whereas in socialism the means of production and distribution are owned by the government, usually purportedly on behalf of workers.

,

or are commonly owned by the people.. ;) At least get the complete definition.

You do realize the system in the US is both capitalistic, and socialistic? This is how we have fire departments, roads, snow plows, etc and the reason why our military has health care at the VA. To be honest, if we were a complete free market society we would have a privately owned military. Do you want that?
 

NYcarbineer

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The thrust of my post wasn't to disregard that flawed humans can screw up any system (note in this regard that it's an old marxist notion that humans are "perfectable", eg the soviet "New man" of the 1920s) but rather that people can either ignorantly or mischievously use the ambiguity in real world systems to blame one system for what are actually artifacts of the other system, eg, "capitalism" being blamed for bad results that are actually the result of the non-capitalist elements embedded within the american economic system.

So that means you believe that the 'socialist' elements imposed on the laissez-faire capitalism of a century or so ago are what's wrong with modern day capitalism?

lol
 
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Socialism is capitalism with regulation to protect workers and consumers and a few nationalized industries for necessities where big profits are disgraceful- you're talking about COMMUNISM. . The USA is socialist, just a sham pandering to the greedy rich. Next yo're going to say Hitler was a socialist. Absolute brainwashed morons.

Luckily only about 30% of the USA is so damn ignorant. Obamahhhhhhh.
 

yidnar

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Socialism is capitalism with regulation to protect workers and consumers and a few nationalized industries for necessities where big profits are disgraceful- you're talking about COMMUNISM. . The USA is socialist, just a sham pandering to the greedy rich. Next yo're going to say Hitler was a socialist. Absolute brainwashed morons.

Luckily only about 30% of the USA is so damn ignorant. Obamahhhhhhh.
Man!!you must be one dirt poor loser!!
 

NYcarbineer

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Capitalism is an economic system wherein the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated within the context of a free market, whereas in socialism the means of production and distribution are owned by the government, usually purportedly on behalf of workers.

How much of business is owned by the government in 'socialist' Europe?
 

Soggy in NOLA

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Thank you, fear mongered, brainwashed Cold War Dinosaur Ugly 'Merican Pub Dupe. The rest of the world knows you're talking about communism. Socialism is social democracy, what they have to call it to stop the dupes' heads from exploding.
Everyone else prefers stable growth social democracy to Mega rich Pubs' boom and bust screw the workers deregulated polluted ruined infrastructure incredibly expensive health care and college rat race. I guess you have guns and religion and ignorant hate though...Pub Dupes!!

Uh, what do you say you take your spluttering imbecility to some other thread? :rolleyes:


hellofromwarsaw
This message is hidden because hellofromwarsaw is on your ignore list.

Try it, you'll thank yourself.
 
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Patrick2

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Capitalism is an economic system wherein the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated within the context of a free market, whereas in socialism the means of production and distribution are owned by the government, usually purportedly on behalf of workers.

,

or are commonly owned by the people.. ;) At least get the complete definition.

You do realize the system in the US is both capitalistic, and socialistic? This is how we have fire departments, roads, snow plows, etc and the reason why our military has health care at the VA. To be honest, if we were a complete free market society we would have a privately owned military. Do you want that?

I would be happy to discuss the structure and other characteristics of a free society, and point out how it would work with such parts as you listed that people have been conditioned to believe are necessary fucntions of government, only because they've never carefully analyzed the issue, but I won't in this venue because I think it would be a waste of time - few here are intellectually up to the level required.
 
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Patrick2

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The thrust of my post wasn't to disregard that flawed humans can screw up any system (note in this regard that it's an old marxist notion that humans are "perfectable", eg the soviet "New man" of the 1920s) but rather that people can either ignorantly or mischievously use the ambiguity in real world systems to blame one system for what are actually artifacts of the other system, eg, "capitalism" being blamed for bad results that are actually the result of the non-capitalist elements embedded within the american economic system.

So that means you believe that the 'socialist' elements imposed on the laissez-faire capitalism of a century or so ago are what's wrong with modern day capitalism?

Many of them. Care to debate that issue?
 
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Patrick2

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Socialism is capitalism with regulation to protect workers and consumers and a few nationalized industries for necessities where big profits are disgraceful- you're talking about COMMUNISM. . The USA is socialist, just a sham pandering to the greedy rich. Next yo're going to say Hitler was a socialist. Absolute brainwashed morons.

Luckily only about 30% of the USA is so damn ignorant. Obamahhhhhhh.

Cimonnnnnnnnnn - only one verbal fart from you per thread. Stick to your quota, omrade. :lmao:
 
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Patrick2

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Capitalism is an economic system wherein the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated within the context of a free market, whereas in socialism the means of production and distribution are owned by the government, usually purportedly on behalf of workers.

How much of business is owned by the government in 'socialist' Europe?

I neverv called europe "socialist" - in fact I said in another thread that the last socialist states in (eastern) europe disapppeared with the collapse of the soviet empire circa 1989.
 

NYcarbineer

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Capitalism is an economic system wherein the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated within the context of a free market, whereas in socialism the means of production and distribution are owned by the government, usually purportedly on behalf of workers.

How much of business is owned by the government in 'socialist' Europe?

I neverv called europe "socialist" - in fact I said in another thread that the last socialist states in (eastern) europe disapppeared with the collapse of the soviet empire circa 1989.

Ah, so all the rightwingers/conservatives/Republicans who go on and on about the perils of the US moving towards 'European socialism' are basically full of shit?
 

NYcarbineer

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The thrust of my post wasn't to disregard that flawed humans can screw up any system (note in this regard that it's an old marxist notion that humans are "perfectable", eg the soviet "New man" of the 1920s) but rather that people can either ignorantly or mischievously use the ambiguity in real world systems to blame one system for what are actually artifacts of the other system, eg, "capitalism" being blamed for bad results that are actually the result of the non-capitalist elements embedded within the american economic system.

So that means you believe that the 'socialist' elements imposed on the laissez-faire capitalism of a century or so ago are what's wrong with modern day capitalism?

Many of them. Care to debate that issue?

Name them.
 

tonystewart1

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Drug Dealing Produces Pure Entrepreneurs | The Daily Nexus



"One doesn’t need to sell drugs to learn business skills, but it sure helps. When observed properly, the underground world of drug-dealing is pure free-market capitalism. There are no business licenses, no overhead costs and no taxes. All expenses are either investments or the cost of doing business selling an illegal product. Ironically, the illegality of drugs enhances the aspects of free-market capitalism in the drug market. There is no government regulation, so any kid with enough cash, common sense and bravado can enter the market. His success will be based purely upon his niche within the market, for he must compete against other suppliers in terms of value, pricing, convenience and customer experience. That is business, folks"

You can read the rest of the article with the link.

Kind of interesting and funny

Now of course pure capitalism is impossible because we need regulation for worker safety and murder is against the law.
 

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