Fair Tax

[Mr. Peepers]

Able = not physically or mentally impaired in order to work. By living wage, I think it was established in 2001 to be close to $9. BTW, in most communtities, minimum wage is considered "poverty wages" in most states.

Living Wage Calculator - Introduction to the Living Wage Calculator

 

[uscitizen]

How do 1K/day coke habits figure in to living wage?

At less than $1/bottle, that is a lot of coke.

He made an excellent point. Not worthy of any type of ridicule in my eyes.

What is deemed as a passable wage...one that allows you to have cable tv? One that allows you to rent Netflix?

One that allows mulltiple tv's? Any TV?

Anyone ever see the poor of other countries? Our poor have cars, TV's, gym memberships (lol)....Jordan footwear.....shallI continue?

I would think not qualifying for food stamps would be one indicator of a living wage.

 

[Wry Catcher]

People have to take responsibility for their own situation. I have had some pretty serious economic hardships, but I took care of them myself. I made sure I didn't committ any crimes that would prevent me from getting employment and also made sure I didn't have any children. Wasn't that hard really.

No one is advocating abusing the system. But, your claim of irresponsibility as far as how many children are in a family pre-supposes those children were conceived after the layoff. That's not always the case, is it?

Lots of families work very hard and try their damnedest to keep their heads above water. When the circumstances outside their control dictate help is needed, it is certainly the right thing to do in assuring such help happens. All the partisan shouting in the world never put a paycheck in a family's account or a meal on the table.

But it can rub salt in the wounds, can't it? Maybe that's what brings the most joy to Conservatives. Smug condescension.

Just a word of advice....

Coupling all conservatives in the same grouping is no different than comparing your situation with that of some guy that found it best to party all night and collect welfare during the day.

There are as many selfish "non conservatives" as there are selfish conservatives....

This is not a conservative vs liberal issue.

This is a selfish vs selfless issue....and I suggest you start seeing it that way.

Biden gave 3K to charity last year....I personally gave over 5% of my income. I am a conservative, Biden is a liberal.

I am not a politician and I worked the kitchen on Thanksgiving........did Biden? Pelosi?

Sorry....you are making a grave error.

Which charity did you give too?

 

[Oldandtired]

No one is advocating abusing the system. But, your claim of irresponsibility as far as how many children are in a family pre-supposes those children were conceived after the layoff. That's not always the case, is it?

Lots of families work very hard and try their damnedest to keep their heads above water. When the circumstances outside their control dictate help is needed, it is certainly the right thing to do in assuring such help happens. All the partisan shouting in the world never put a paycheck in a family's account or a meal on the table.

But it can rub salt in the wounds, can't it? Maybe that's what brings the most joy to Conservatives. Smug condescension.

Just a word of advice....

Coupling all conservatives in the same grouping is no different than comparing your situation with that of some guy that found it best to party all night and collect welfare during the day.

There are as many selfish "non conservatives" as there are selfish conservatives....

This is not a conservative vs liberal issue.

This is a selfish vs selfless issue....and I suggest you start seeing it that way.

Biden gave 3K to charity last year....I personally gave over 5% of my income. I am a conservative, Biden is a liberal.

I am not a politician and I worked the kitchen on Thanksgiving........did Biden? Pelosi?

Sorry....you are making a grave error.

Which charity did you give too?

Did?
I still do.
Have been to over 100 worthy organizations since I became successful. Ranging from local PTA and scouts to ACS to ARC...and this year I included Hope for Haiti .
Why?

 

[uscitizen]

I give to local charities and directly to the needy in my neighborhood/area.

 

[Wry Catcher]

the economy is anemic because the cost of doing business is so high. All the taxes to support socialist programs increase the cost of doing business in America.

Wow, not even a little bit true.

very true.
Only one who does not own a business would say it is untrue.
I can start with a simple thing like tax matching.

Not true, most taxes on small business come in the shape of local taxes and local fees. Of course ADA added costs, but not ongoing ones.
I can start with a not so simple thing, such as spending $10 billion a month on a war of choice, off budget.
What if the money spent on the war in Iraq had been invested in America? Reparing our infrastructure, adding public transportations systems, building canals and dams, modernizing our electrical grid, building teaching hospitals and health centers to provide health education and early treatment of disease - gee what a concept.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Able = not physically or mentally impaired in order to work.

Where does chronic laziness fit into your definition of "able"

By living wage, I think it was established in 2001 to be close to $9.

Then people should work to acquire the skills to make themselves worth $9 per hour.

Just because someone wants money does not mean that they should be given the money.
Now let me try some calculations
Splitting a one room efficiency (including basic utilities of electricity and water) with a working roommate costs say $600 a month (or less) in my neck of the woods. Brown rice is going for about $0.65 per pound. Same for dried lentils - a pound of each will last ~ a week. $15 a week will get you enough fresh fruit and vegetable to stay healthy.
So one month
$600 for housing + 4.5 (weeks) x $16.30 groceries/week = $673.35
Let us say that take home (after Socialist Security and Medifraud deductions) ends up at $4 per hour. Then your person at $4 per hour take home needs to work about 37.4 hours per week to make ends meet.
Now I will agree that a lot of people would not care to survive on such fare, but I can attest to someone who worked their way through college on just that sort of diet/budget. Because they had worked hard in high school they had a scholarship which covered most of their tuition and fees, and they ended up making it through college with only ~$5000 in student loans and no credit card debt.

Somehow the claim of $9 per hour to avoid poverty sounds suspect.

 

[Oldandtired]

Wow, not even a little bit true.

very true.
Only one who does not own a business would say it is untrue.
I can start with a simple thing like tax matching.

Not true, most taxes on small business come in the shape of local taxes and local fees. Of course ADA added costs, but not ongoing ones.
I can start with a not so simple thing, such as spending $10 billion a month on a war of choice, off budget.
What if the money spent on the war in Iraq had been invested in America? Reparing our infrastructure, adding public transportations systems, building canals and dams, modernizing our electrical grid, building teaching hospitals and health centers to provide health education and early treatment of disease - gee what a concept.

YTour issue with the war costs is valid but does nopt belong in this debate.
We are talking about the cost to run a business in the US.
And the cost is very high.
18% statatory costs per employee not including healthcare.
Real estate tax
Cap gains tax
Speculated cap and trade tax is now in our forecasting
And yes, us business owners forecast. We do not knee jerk react.
We leave that to the government.

 

[Oldandtired]

I give to local charities and directly to the needy in my neighborhood/area.

DIRECTLY to the needy?

But....but....but......how do you get a receipt for the write off?

 

[uscitizen]

I give to local charities and directly to the needy in my neighborhood/area.

DIRECTLY to the needy?

But....but....but......how do you get a receipt for the write off?

I don't cause I don't care about that.
I don't have too many more years to be blessed with helping to support my country anyway.

A gave away a few thousand in food from thanksgiving to new years.
I buy it from a wholeseller and give it to people that need it.
It was over 1/2 of a 2 car garage for just the non perishables.

 

[Oldandtired]

I give to local charities and directly to the needy in my neighborhood/area.

DIRECTLY to the needy?

But....but....but......how do you get a receipt for the write off?

I don't cause I don't care about that.
I don't have too many more years to be blessed with helping to support my country anyway.

It was humor....

My local giving is usually cash.....50-50's of which if I win all goes back.....raffles.....bake sales (now banned).....scout events.....and yes, those on the streets of manhattan.

But I do get write off's on my 4 and 5 figure donations....My accountant would have my head if I didnt....so would my wife.

You area good man US CItizen....a rare breed.

 

[uscitizen]

DIRECTLY to the needy?

But....but....but......how do you get a receipt for the write off?

I don't cause I don't care about that.
I don't have too many more years to be blessed with helping to support my country anyway.

It was humor....

My local giving is usually cash.....50-50's of which if I win all goes back.....raffles.....bake sales (now banned).....scout events.....and yes, those on the streets of manhattan.

But I do get write off's on my 4 and 5 figure donations....My accountant would have my head if I didnt....so would my wife.

You area good man US CItizen....a rare breed.

People around here seem to like me.
If that loud texas guy came up here to whip my ass he would likely vanish.
Hillbillies either whip your ass or invite you in for supper. And sometimes whip your ass after supper

I am not legally allowed to give away my slaughtered beef, but....

 

[Charles Stucker]

A gave away a few thousand in food from thanksgiving to new years.
I buy it from a wholeseller and give it to people that need it.
It was over 1/2 of a 2 car garage for just the non perishables.

It is never a question of whether individuals support charity but whether government funded charity is a good idea. The answer to whether government charity is a good idea is a resounding NO.

Federal income tax is unfair because it gives too much power to the central government. Centralized power was anathema to the founders of our nation as was anything resembling welfare; Washington himself warned of the evils which would befall a nation which transformed pensions for wounded veterans or the widows and orphans of dead veterans into general government largess. Socialist Security, Medifraud and NotSoWelfare are all examples of government largess. All fly in the face of generations of federal frugality and all should be ended immediately.

 

[PeterS]

Its fair, do you support it?

No, it's a consumption tax. It's only fair if you don't consume.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Its fair, do you support it?

No, it's a consumption tax. It's only fair if you don't consume.

So then Income tax is only fair if you don't have an income.
Wait that's what the nanny state wants - everyone (or at least a solid majority of the voters who can then be expected to keep them in power) to not have incomes and depend on the government for their dole.

 

[Wry Catcher]

How do 1K/day coke habits figure in to living wage?

At less than $1/bottle, that is a lot of coke.

He made an excellent point. Not worthy of any type of ridicule in my eyes.

What is deemed as a passable wage...one that allows you to have cable tv? One that allows you to rent Netflix?

One that allows mulltiple tv's? Any TV?

Anyone ever see the poor of other countries? Our poor have cars, TV's, gym memberships (lol)....Jordan footwear.....shallI continue?

Please do, continue that is. And describe the poor - what do they look like, in your mind? Where do you see them? Have you ever spoken with a 'poor' person?

 

[PeterS]

Its fair, do you support it?

No, it's a consumption tax. It's only fair if you don't consume.

So then Income tax is only fair if you don't have an income.
Wait that's what the nanny state wants - everyone (or at least a solid majority of the voters who can then be expected to keep them in power) to not have incomes and depend on the government for their dole.

I didn't make the argument that an income tax was fair but I see no reason to replace one unfair tax with another one. If you want a fair tax then make it a revenue neutral flat tax that replaces all other federal taxes. That way if you want a tax cut and also want to cut off those on the dole then elect the representatives to eliminate the spending you don't want and cut your taxes.

Whats unfair about that?

 

[Oldandtired]

How do 1K/day coke habits figure in to living wage?

At less than $1/bottle, that is a lot of coke.

He made an excellent point. Not worthy of any type of ridicule in my eyes.

What is deemed as a passable wage...one that allows you to have cable tv? One that allows you to rent Netflix?

One that allows mulltiple tv's? Any TV?

Anyone ever see the poor of other countries? Our poor have cars, TV's, gym memberships (lol)....Jordan footwear.....shallI continue?

Please do, continue that is. And describe the poor - what do they look like, in your mind? Where do you see them? Have you ever spoken with a 'poor' person?

Putting aside your arrogant sarcasm and feeble attempt to ridicule me as you imply that I am naive to the true plights of the less fortunate...

If you personally knew me, you would understand.

 

[Nosmo King]

If the President said "we need to raise your taxes for one year to help those in need" I would not oppose.

But he opted to spend a trillion dollars to pay back special interest groups....9000 earmarks mind you.......and now he wants to raise our taxes so we can help out the less fortunate....and raise other taxes to help out other groups...and inhibit our corporate growth with cap and trade so he can cater to even MORE special interest groups.....and we, conservatives are the bad guys?

Why not look at Obama and ask why YOU and those that are struggling like you are taking a back seat to special interest groups?

Maybe that trillion should have been slated to relief?

Do you see how they have you hating those that can help you? Are you truly not seeing it?

Are you telling me that corporations are here to help us? After they polluted our air, water and soil? After they negotiated contracts with us then moved their operations to Asia to save a buck? And, before moving, asked us to concede our benefits and wages?

After they gained special access to our legislators and administrators to get the deck stacked in their favor? After they globalized the market and paved the way for only the biggest and richest to compete?

Are you asking us to trust the hand that slapped us? Why?

I am not asking you to thank the hand that slapped you.

95% of the businesses in America are still in America employing Americans and paying American taxes and adhering to American environmental regulations and making American goods and seeling them to Amereicans at fair prices.

Stop grouping all business owners with the likes of GE executives....oh yeah...I forgot...they are OK...they are liberals.

Now you are sounding like an asshole....not someone trying to make a valid point...AND YES....your point is valid. I SAID THAT WITH MY FIRST RESPONSE...yet you continue to berate me...a conservative.

The bonuses paid out at Citigroup amount to almost $500,000 per employee. I'll bet the teller at your local Citigroup branch ain't walking away with damn near a half million dollars! And yet that's the corporate mindset you want to respect and revere as the height of unfettered Capitalism.

My point is this mindset is unsustainable. Outsourcing manufacturing jobs is unsustainable, if a company wants a vibrant middle class customer base.

In an economic downturn like this one, the credit market tightens up making capital more difficult to secure. It's times like these that demand the biggest economic force standing become the spender, just to get money moving again. And in this case, it's the federal government.

Given all that, the stimulus of that 'vibrant' middle class is essential. And if that means largess to struggling families and laid off workers, fine! No ideology provides a perfect template for both economic and political action. Once free wheeling, deregulated Capitalism crashes and burns (as it usually does) a robust federal spending plan has to fill the void. For the sake of those who made it all possible anyway~ the working class American.

 

[Polk]

I think the right call fair tax a consumption only tax. If so I do not support that.

Nor do I. Consumption taxes fall more heavily on the people with less money. I support a FLAT tax. With a threshold below which one does not pay taxes to the Federal Government at all. Exception being Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes.

I could support thant in theory, if it was levied on all income.