Fair Tax

[Polk]

One thing is for sure; we've got way too many people in this nation that have no tax burden at all. That's incredibly disturbing to me knowing that roughly 50% of the population gets to vote on how to spend tax dollars (albeit indirectly) when they don't contribute anything to be paid.

It would help to use real numbers. The whole "50% don't pay any taxes" claim is based on ignoring most taxes which are levied.

 

[Polk]

What the fair tax does is removes the corporate taxes (we have the 2nd highest in the world)

Misleading. We have the second highest rate, but it has so many deductions and loopholes that we have a very low effective rate.

payroll tax (one of the only countries that has it and it a small business killer),

Many other major countries have a payroll tax (UK, China, Brazil, Australia) and when you get down to it, what's the difference between a payroll tax and an income tax? Very little in practical terms.

the Estate tax (which is a illogical and unjust tax altogether)

So people should be able to earn capital gains tax-free as long as they give those gains to their kids? That's asinine.

Naysayer will say the consumption tax will prohibit consumers from buying. That will not be the case. With all the taxes removed on business there will be a boom in Corporations forming and GROWING. Heck we will even see a boom in the manufacturing sector. More jobs mean more money in the American pockets. We are a consumer nation. In fact we spend more than any other nation. That won't stop with the Fair Tax. In fact it will increase, with the boom in employment, especially in high paying jobs.

The fair tax is what is needed to get us an edge over China, Mexico and the 3rd world.

Why would our manufacturing sector boom? The transition would significantly reduce the value of personal savings, placing consumers in an even tighter bind and higher prices for goods means they'll have reduced ability to purchase.

 

[Oldandtired]

Are you telling me that corporations are here to help us? After they polluted our air, water and soil? After they negotiated contracts with us then moved their operations to Asia to save a buck? And, before moving, asked us to concede our benefits and wages?

After they gained special access to our legislators and administrators to get the deck stacked in their favor? After they globalized the market and paved the way for only the biggest and richest to compete?

Are you asking us to trust the hand that slapped us? Why?

I am not asking you to thank the hand that slapped you.

95% of the businesses in America are still in America employing Americans and paying American taxes and adhering to American environmental regulations and making American goods and seeling them to Amereicans at fair prices.

Stop grouping all business owners with the likes of GE executives....oh yeah...I forgot...they are OK...they are liberals.

Now you are sounding like an asshole....not someone trying to make a valid point...AND YES....your point is valid. I SAID THAT WITH MY FIRST RESPONSE...yet you continue to berate me...a conservative.

The bonuses paid out at Citigroup amount to almost $500,000 per employee. I'll bet the teller at your local Citigroup branch ain't walking away with damn near a half million dollars! And yet that's the corporate mindset you want to respect and revere as the height of unfettered Capitalism.

My point is this mindset is unsustainable. Outsourcing manufacturing jobs is unsustainable, if a company wants a vibrant middle class customer base.

In an economic downturn like this one, the credit market tightens up making capital more difficult to secure. It's times like these that demand the biggest economic force standing become the spender, just to get money moving again. And in this case, it's the federal government.

Given all that, the stimulus of that 'vibrant' middle class is essential. And if that means largess to struggling families and laid off workers, fine! No ideology provides a perfect template for both economic and political action. Once free wheeling, deregulated Capitalism crashes and burns (as it usually does) a robust federal spending plan has to fill the void. For the sake of those who made it all possible anyway~ the working class American.

A teller goes to work at 9 AM...gets a break at 11AM....goes to lunch at 1PM...gets a break at 3 PM....goes home at 5PM and does not think about work until the next morning. This telller has the responsibility to herself (himself) and no one else at work. This teller has the basic responsibility to do his or her job as he or she was trained to do.
THIS TELLER OPTED FOR A JOB WITH NO HEADACHES AND NO RESPONSIBILITY TO OTHERS. THIS TELLER OPTED FOR A JOB THAT ALLOWS HIM OR HER TO GO HOME WITHOUT A CONCERN IN THE WORLD ABOUT CORPORATE ISSUES. THIS TELLER OPTED FOR A JOB THAT IS EASILY REPLACED WITH A NEW EMPLOYEE WHEN THIS TELLER'S SALARY EXCEEDS THE RETURN ON THE POSITION.
THIS TELLER MADE THE CHOICE.

The senior executive that gets the big bucks opted for a career that includes 12 hour days, issues on the weekends, travelling for days at a time, headaches of under employee issues, conference calls on Sunday's, covering for the tellers when they cant make it in due to 2 inches of snow.
Many say the higher execs salary to the lower employee salary spread has increased over the past 20 years. Yes, it has. But that is a result of technology, not greed. It used to be that a lathe turner who made 17 bucks an hour sat at the lathe for 10 hours a day as he turned brass into fittings. Now, they get the same 17 an hour to program the computer and watch the brass turn into fittings...barely breaking a sweat.
Meanwhile, the senior execs STILL need to travel worldwide, deal wiuth issues on the weekend, deal with personnel issues, etc etc etc.
Your beef is with technology....not with business owners. You just dont want to see it.

 

[Oldandtired]

What the fair tax does is removes the corporate taxes (we have the 2nd highest in the world)

Misleading. We have the second highest rate, but it has so many deductions and loopholes that we have a very low effective rate.

payroll tax (one of the only countries that has it and it a small business killer),

Many other major countries have a payroll tax (UK, China, Brazil, Australia) and when you get down to it, what's the difference between a payroll tax and an income tax? Very little in practical terms.

the Estate tax (which is a illogical and unjust tax altogether)

So people should be able to earn capital gains tax-free as long as they give those gains to their kids? That's asinine.

Naysayer will say the consumption tax will prohibit consumers from buying. That will not be the case. With all the taxes removed on business there will be a boom in Corporations forming and GROWING. Heck we will even see a boom in the manufacturing sector. More jobs mean more money in the American pockets. We are a consumer nation. In fact we spend more than any other nation. That won't stop with the Fair Tax. In fact it will increase, with the boom in employment, especially in high paying jobs.

The fair tax is what is needed to get us an edge over China, Mexico and the 3rd world.

Why would our manufacturing sector boom? The transition would significantly reduce the value of personal savings, placing consumers in an even tighter bind and higher prices for goods means they'll have reduced ability to purchase.

Curious Polk....are you not aware of what Payroll tax refers to?

Based on your comparing it to income tax, I would say you do not.

Payroll tax is by no means tax on income. It is a tax on the employer based on the salary paid to the employee.

Are you not aware of what estate tax is?

Based on you referring it to capital gains, I would say you dont.

Estate tax is a tax on income that had already been taxed when it was earned.

Why do you post when you know so little about what you are posting about?

 

[Oldandtired]

One thing is for sure; we've got way too many people in this nation that have no tax burden at all. That's incredibly disturbing to me knowing that roughly 50% of the population gets to vote on how to spend tax dollars (albeit indirectly) when they don't contribute anything to be paid.

It would help to use real numbers. The whole "50% don't pay any taxes" claim is based on ignoring most taxes which are levied.

Interesting.....and you are correct.

But Mr. Obama insists on referring to ONLY income tax when discussing how no one under a certain income will get a tax increase....yet when debating the issue, you insist on throwing in the other taxes.

So lets call a spade a spade.

Yes, everyone's taxes are going up with everything they do. But the ones that have the longer hours, more stressful positions...and yes, create the jobs for the rest of them, carry 95% of the INCOME tax load....and only 50% overall pay INCOME tax...

Although, let us not forget...the employer STILL pays the payroll tax on those that do not pay income tax. You see, the employee will file and get their money back from the IRS.

The employer still needs to match the tax that was originally paid....despite the fact that the emplyee gets a full refund.

I know....who cares about the little details like that when debating.

 

[Charles Stucker]

It used to be that a lathe turner who made 17 bucks an hour sat at the lathe for 10 hours a day as he turned brass into fittings. Now, they get the same 17 an hour to program the computer and watch the brass turn into fittings...barely breaking a sweat.

And then, once he goes home he has to break out the most recent books, bought on his own dime, and study for several hours to keep up or become obsolete. Meaning replaced and sent to work at fast food wages.
The Exec has to keep up with whose buttcheeks need kissing.
Yeah I understand how execs TRULY deserve such great compensation relative to the workers.

 

[Oldandtired]

It used to be that a lathe turner who made 17 bucks an hour sat at the lathe for 10 hours a day as he turned brass into fittings. Now, they get the same 17 an hour to program the computer and watch the brass turn into fittings...barely breaking a sweat.

And then, once he goes home he has to break out the most recent books, bought on his own dime, and study for several hours to keep up or become obsolete. Meaning replaced and sent to work at fast food wages.
The Exec has to keep up with whose buttcheeks need kissing.
Yeah I understand how execs TRULY deserve such great compensation relative to the workers.

The lathe turner made the choice to take the position. He liked the salary, the4 benefits, the vacation time and the ability to enjoy his weekends and not have to deal with business when he is "off".
It was his choice.
As for your view of senior execs.....
You are assuming all execs operate like the satiracal stereotype.
Some do I am sure. Most dont....

My son had a choice 5 months ago. Go out and find some crappy job...or deal with the headaches and issues of starting his own venture.

5 months later, as his friends spend their saturday mornings sleeping, my son is working as there is no rest for the weary when you run your own business.

He makes a bit more than his frineds do....about 10% right now....but he is in control of his own destiny....he is sacrificing his "free time" now for the returns later.

His friends made a choice and he made a choice.

One needs to be willing to sacrifice....most are not.

And when those that sacrifice enjoy the returns of their sacrifices, they are frowned upon by those that did not wish to sacrifice.

 

[Charles Stucker]

The lathe turner made the choice to take the position.
His friends made a choice and he made a choice.

One needs to be willing to sacrifice....most are not.

Most people who start their own businesses lose a lot of money. Part of that is that not everyone has the "sales" skills needed to make a business work, but another part is the federal government's excessive regulations which are, as you son should be able to tell you, hostile to small businesses. The owners of moderately successful small business are not a corporate executives, they are small business owners. The Execs to which I refer are those who work for the big companies with publicly traded stock and who do not, in my experience, actually take as much work home as you suggest. Certainly not as much work as the typical high tech employee who is forced to constantly keep up with the tech. I've known too many people who jumped from the Tech end to the management end, just to make the transition to Exec possible, because they tired of the constant drain on their time. This is particularly ridiculous in the tech field where I can guarantee if all the engineers/programmers from a given company walked out at once nothing the execs could try would salvage the company.NOTHING. Because the continuity of experience and knowledge lost would be impossible to replace. The same would not be true if all the execs got tossed in a corporate takeover.

The execs make money because of who they know, not what.

 

[uscitizen]

The execs make money because of who they know, not what.
//

True dat. A good ol boy network.

 

[Oldandtired]

The lathe turner made the choice to take the position.
His friends made a choice and he made a choice.

One needs to be willing to sacrifice....most are not.

Most people who start their own businesses lose a lot of money. Part of that is that not everyone has the "sales" skills needed to make a business work, but another part is the federal government's excessive regulations which are, as you son should be able to tell you, hostile to small businesses. The owners of moderately successful small business are not a corporate executives, they are small business owners. The Execs to which I refer are those who work for the big companies with publicly traded stock and who do not, in my experience, actually take as much work home as you suggest. Certainly not as much work as the typical high tech employee who is forced to constantly keep up with the tech. I've known too many people who jumped from the Tech end to the management end, just to make the transition to Exec possible, because they tired of the constant drain on their time. This is particularly ridiculous in the tech field where I can guarantee if all the engineers/programmers from a given company walked out at once nothing the execs could try would salvage the company.NOTHING. Because the continuity of experience and knowledge lost would be impossible to replace. The same would not be true if all the execs got tossed in a corporate takeover.

The execs make money because of who they know, not what.

I understand your point...and it is valid based on what you believe.
I do not agree as I went from destitute, to one of those execs that was working long hours...to one that quit the long hour high paying exec job so I can start my own....to one that sold off...and started another....

And when I was an exec at a fortune 100...I was one of about 200 execs working 12 hour days and weekends...and travelling....and yes, we had those 3 or 4 above us working less....and making the big bucks.....

But my best friend from those days? He stuck with it...and now is one of those at the top...after 25 years of 6 day weeks....70 hours a week....and now his return is a 5 day week and a nice bonus every year.....

He earned it.

I earned my return

My son will earn his.

We made decisions.

We live with them.

We have others telling us trhat they do not approve of the decisions WE made becuase they are not happy with the decisions THEY made.

Go figure.

 

[uscitizen]

Seniority huh?

 

[Oldandtired]

Seniority huh?

Yeah...seriously.....if you have a proiblem with it, go back to getting laughs at the expense of the meantally disadvantaged.

 

[uscitizen]

Seniority huh?

Yeah...seriously.....if you have a proiblem with it, go back to getting laughs at the expense of the meantally disadvantaged.

Senority as in a union. Put in your time and kick back?
Not the way working class jobs work recently.
You have seniority you get laid off because you cost the most.
That is what people like your boss buddy decide, for others, not for themselves of course.

 

[Oldandtired]

Seniority huh?

Yeah...seriously.....if you have a proiblem with it, go back to getting laughs at the expense of the meantally disadvantaged.

Senority as in a union. Put in your time and kick back?
Not the way working class jobs work recently.
You have seniority you get laid off because you cost the most.
That is what people like your boss buddy decide, for others, not for themselves of course.

You speak of a small percentage scenario.

Many have seniority due to years on the job, but made no striues to increase their skill set.....so 20 years later, seeing as they opted to use their extra cash for ipods as opposed to increase their skill set with courses etc.....they become priced out. They have 20 years of raises but are still doing the exact same hjob they did 20 years back.

In the meantime....my "buddy" worked long hours....spent hours taking courses.....expanding himself...so he can NOT be priced out of the market.

Personal choices.

 

[uscitizen]

Yeah...seriously.....if you have a proiblem with it, go back to getting laughs at the expense of the meantally disadvantaged.

Senority as in a union. Put in your time and kick back?
Not the way working class jobs work recently.
You have seniority you get laid off because you cost the most.
That is what people like your boss buddy decide, for others, not for themselves of course.

You speak of a small percentage scenario.

Many have seniority due to years on the job, but made no striues to increase their skill set.....so 20 years later, seeing as they opted to use their extra cash for ipods as opposed to increase their skill set with courses etc.....they become priced out. They have 20 years of raises but are still doing the exact same hjob they did 20 years back.

In the meantime....my "buddy" worked long hours....spent hours taking courses.....expanding himself...so he can NOT be priced out of the market.

Personal choices.

Ohh I got priced out of the market by India. This happend twice during my working career. I took many hours of courses on my own time, etc to stay current, but I cost too much.
Some exec like your buddy got a bonus out of offshoring my job.

 

[Meister]

I have a couple of friends who were just about to be fully vested in their retirement and were laid of for bogus reasons. One of the reasons was the person punched out to lunch 3 min too late, her first offense. This isn't right, and it's done more often than just isolated occurences, and by big name companies.

 

[uscitizen]

I have a couple of friends who were just about to be fully vested in their retirement and were laid of for bogus reasons. This isn't right, and it's done more often than just isolated occurences, and by big name companies.

Verizon Corp has been doing it for over 15 years.
They just about have their traditional pension plan eliminated.

 

[Oldandtired]

Senority as in a union. Put in your time and kick back?
Not the way working class jobs work recently.
You have seniority you get laid off because you cost the most.
That is what people like your boss buddy decide, for others, not for themselves of course.

You speak of a small percentage scenario.

Many have seniority due to years on the job, but made no striues to increase their skill set.....so 20 years later, seeing as they opted to use their extra cash for ipods as opposed to increase their skill set with courses etc.....they become priced out. They have 20 years of raises but are still doing the exact same hjob they did 20 years back.

In the meantime....my "buddy" worked long hours....spent hours taking courses.....expanding himself...so he can NOT be priced out of the market.

Personal choices.

Ohh I got priced out of the market by India. This happend twice during my working career. I took many hours of courses on my own time, etc to stay current, but I cost too much.
Some exec like your buddy got a bonus out of offshoring my job.

Do not get me wrong about one thing.....the offshore outsourcing has ALWAYS been a peeve of mine.

But do not confuse responsibility with "do it the way I want you to do it"

My buddy had to make decisions to meet his business responsibilities...and some like you may disagree and there are others that agree.

For example....

That college grad that gets an opportunity becuase the long time employee that did nothing to increase his skill set became too expensive for the return on his productivity.

The college grad is happy, the biug boss is happy as money was saved.....but the employee that did not increase his skill set is the one who is unhappy.

And he is the one who screams "unfair"....and people like you agree.

Or, we could do what you do....

Assume that the one scenario YOU describe is the norm..

As someone who has been through it all...it is not the norm. It is simply opne scenario...and yes, one that I have an issue with as well.

 

[emilynghiem]

Editorial against property taxes published Feb.06 in the Houston Chronicle, by Talmadge Heflin, Director of the Center Fiscal Policy / Texas Public Policy Foundation:

chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2010_4845868

Here are the published replies, including mine below advocating collecting restitution to taxpayers. The link also includes readers' comments online that you can post responses to: chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/6861168.html

=============
Inherent dangers

I commend Talmadge Heflin's proposal for “better ways to raise money to pay for government” through a broad-based sales tax instead of property taxes. As long as government depends on property for tax revenue, not only is the right of ownership at stake, as Heflin argues, but the economy driven by property and rental values has unequally threatened the right of elderly and low-income citizens to be secure in their houses, and prevented nonprofit groups and churches from preserving historic buildings whose true value cannot be measured.

Furthermore, the abuse of taxing authority to seize property against the will of the owners weakens the integrity of laws protecting people and property from criminals with similar intent, costing billions of tax dollars wasted annually on a failed justice system. In order to break the cycle of crime and waste, enforce laws and balance the budget, the state should stop taxing law-abiding citizens and productive businesses for owning property, and should collect restitution from wrongdoers convicted of crimes against property or persons, including government abuses of resources that should be paid back to the public.

— EMILY T. NGHIEM
Houston

 

[Oldandtired]

I have a couple of friends who were just about to be fully vested in their retirement and were laid of for bogus reasons. One of the reasons was the person punched out to lunch 3 min too late, her first offense. This isn't right, and it's done more often than just isolated occurences, and by big name companies.

And just as I decided to leave a fortune 100 company as I was concerned about my future, others have the opiton NOT to take a position with a company of such a reputation.

Companies that pull that crap are still deemed as employers of choice by many as they do not do the research necessary to make career decisions.

And when their lack of concern results in them getting screwed over, they complain.

I do not blame them for complaining...they have a right to be upset....but they should have read about the company first....just as many should have read the fine print on their credit card apps.....and many should have looked at ALL possibilities with the variable rate mortgages.

Be upset? Yes. But to blame the system that you try to capitalize on? No. Blame yourself.

I did...and it got me to where I am today....and I have no regrets....well..I have one....

That time my wife asked if I minded if her lesbian friend go to the Bahamas with us....I should have said yes......