Failed by US Healthcare

[Grumblenuts]

Thanks for caring about others no matter where, Tommy. Empathy. Strange concept!

 

[JoeB131]

I never said ANY of that.

Okay, get back to me when you can keep track of your own argument.

 

[JoeB131]

And you think that's never going to happen again??? I don't want my health care to depend on the Russians.

Okay, buddy, you keep telling yourself that...

(Giving up already? You were doing so well. Okay, let's do insults! )

No, dude, if you think anyone can sue Cigna and win you are a fucking retard.

Nataline Sarkisyan's dad DID sue Cigna. Cigna got a ruling in court that he had NO STANDING, because the contract was between his employer and Cigna, not him. His little girl didn't get her liver transplant and she died.

If this is "Freedom" by you, give me fucking tyranny....

If we nationalize health care, or even just health insurance, it will be a political football every. single. election. "Scare the seniors" will be a quaint memory. It will pale in the face of each party holding our health care for hostage. Each party will be shuffling promises to interest groups, targeting political enemies, and scaring sick people with claims that the other side is going to take away this or that.

One more time.

Rest of the word has nationalized health care.

They spend less per person, they have better results.

Honestly, I'm all for the politicians having open debates, rather than some guys in suits deciding, "Well, here's a new legal strategy we can use to deny people care AFTER they've paid their premiums".

 

[Mindful]

I never said ANY of that.

Okay, get back to me when you can keep track of your own argument.

Nonsense.

 

[dblack]

And you think that's never going to happen again??? I don't want my health care to depend on the Russians.

Okay, buddy, you keep telling yourself that...

Are you telling yourself something different? Regardless of whether it was because of the Russians, or half our country just went full retard - Trump happened. And he can happen again. As long as our nation is capable of electing morons, I want government to have as little say in my life as possible.

If this is "Freedom" by you, give me fucking tyranny....

And that's probably what you'll get. You're certainly asking for it.

 

[Grumblenuts]

One more time.

Rest of the word has nationalized health care.

They spend less per person, they have better results.

Honestly, I'm all for the politicians having open debates, rather than some guys in suits deciding, "Well, here's a new legal strategy we can use to deny people care AFTER they've paid their premiums".

All plainly true. Never rebutted. Never even acknowledged. Clearly not asking for "fucking tyranny"either. Quite the contrary.

 

[JoeB131]

Are you telling yourself something different? Regardless of whether it was because of the Russians, or half our country just went full retard - Trump happened. And he can happen again. As long as our nation is capable of electing morons, I want government to have as little say in my life as possible.

Here's how you keep Trump from happening again.


Get rid of the Electoral College, safeguard our voting process.

Done.

The fact that the government is still functioning as well as it does despite having a madman in charge, shows that the government works just fine. A business with a nut like that in charge would just go bankrupt (as several of his businesses have when he was only half as crazy as he is now.)

All plainly true. Never rebutted. Never even acknowledged. Clearly not asking for "fucking tyranny"either. Quite the contrary.

you have to remember... DBlack is a Libertarian Child.

They like living in civilization, they just don't like the work involved.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Libertarianism in the United States is a movement promoting individual liberty and minimized government. ... Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.

"embrace individual responsibility" - "anti-corporate" being the most obvious translation - but no, no, that can't be it! Makes too much sense! No, somehow "anti-govt" is the apparent intent. As though other people were always arguing for more government than necessary. As though govt somehow inherently reduced individual responsibility. Govt actually being the only thing humans have ever cooked up to define and enforce limits upon general behavior. But no, see there's this island out there.. somewhere.. for each of us.. individually.. alone.. to stand upon.. where we just need to pull up our bootstraps.. make up our own rules.. self-regulate.. "take responsibility".. credit only ourselves.. become "self-made" like BluesMan.. legends.. completely in our own minds!..

"oppose government bureaucracy and taxes" - yes, as opposed to the throngs out there constantly shouting "MORE RED TAPE AND FEES!"

"promote private charity" - yes, let those with the most decide who, if anyone, to trickle down upon.. with no particular concern or knowledge.. and for a tax deduction.

"tolerate diverse lifestyles" - now there's at least something!

"support the free market" - as opposed to "fair" obviously.. just more advantage the Haves, fuck the Have Nots..

"and defend civil liberties." - except any right to minimal healthcare apparently.. meaning a right "against" people dying from common healthcare neglect by the way, dblack.

 

[dblack]

"and defend civil liberties." - except any right to minimal healthcare apparently.. meaning a right "against" people dying from common healthcare neglect by the way, dblack.

WTF does that even mean? Do you know the definition "civil liberty"??? Please go read it. Then maybe you can rephrase your post in a way that makes sense.

 

[dblack]

Are you telling yourself something different? Regardless of whether it was because of the Russians, or half our country just went full retard - Trump happened. And he can happen again. As long as our nation is capable of electing morons, I want government to have as little say in my life as possible.

Here's how you keep Trump from happening again.

You missed the point. Again. The point is, Trump WILL happen again. It's inevitable.

I'm often stunned by the blind assumption of liberals, when they clamor for more state power, that democracy will never let them down, that voters will alway elect someone who agrees with them and shares their values, that government will always be on their side.

All plainly true. Never rebutted. Never even acknowledged. Clearly not asking for "fucking tyranny"either. Quite the contrary.

you have to remember... DBlack is a Libertarian Child.

They like living in civilization, they just don't like the work involved.

Ahh.. petty insults. Again. Your go-to end game. At least you're smart enough to know when to fold.

 

[Harry Dresden]

tommy how come the original drummer for Iron Maiden who had MS had to have benefit concerts for him to help pay his medical bills?...is England not part of that "developed" world you mentioned?..

Had to? Sorry, but that sounds like mostly {cough} BS to me:

“We think it’s time for a break,” they told Clive. And that was that. After the best part of four years, three albums – not just any old albums, either, but the three albums that many Iron Maiden fan will tell you remain the band’s best work – and suddenly the dream was over, just as it was all coming true.

Everybody knows what happened next for Maiden.

What happened next for Clive Burr was a case of dusting himself down and starting all over again. He was grieving for his dad. Now he was also grieving for his band and the job he’d dreamt of since he first saw Ian Paice playing Highway Star with Deep Purple.

Back home in the UK the rumours were rife: it was the drugs that were to blame for his dismissal;

{...snip...}

When the band found out about Clive’s multiple sclerosis they stepped in and helped they best way they knew how – by playing for him. Their help has transformed his life.

“They bought me a vehicle...” He pauses. “Meeeeeeeemes, what car is it again?” he shouts. “We call it the Clivemobile. It’s a Volkswagen Caddy with blacked-out windows. It’s like an American gangster’s car. They’ve put concerts on to raise money, not just for me but for other people with MS. They put a stair-lift in our house. Sometimes I’ll go up and down the stairs, looking at the gold and platinum records on the stairwell. Ha ha.” Better than that, and what he appreciates most of all, Mimi says when Clive is out of earshot, is that they involve him. “They say if ever you need anything, just ring, just call,” she says. “Whenever they play in London, Clive knows that he’s only got to pick up the phone and he’s got two of the best tickets in the house. It might not sound like much, but it is to Clive. Finally, to him, it’s like his achievements – who he is and what he did – are being recognised.”

But, um, nice (cough) try.

sorry i saw a interview with steve harris and he said they did the concerts for him because he was in deep debt because of his treatments and their expense on his family....so take it up with him....i figure he knows a little bit more than we do...

Sorry, Steve is unavailable and was presumably responsible for sacking Clive for taking a little break when his father died, thus remains wracked with guilt in retrospect for that idiocy. Sounds like they were mainly jealous of his good looks and thus all the attention he got from the fans. What I quoted is from a family interview. I think they knew better and had less reason to embellish upon the truth.

if thats what they told you,go with it......an interview with clive after leaving the band he said much of what was said about the split was "hogwash"....he and harris did not get along...

 

[Grumblenuts]

"and defend civil liberties." - except any right to minimal healthcare apparently.. meaning a right "against" people dying from common healthcare neglect by the way, dblack.

WTF does that even mean? Do you know the definition "civil liberty"??? Please go read it. Then maybe you can rephrase your post in a way that makes sense.

Here, you read it:

Civil liberties or personal freedoms are personal guarantees and freedoms that the government cannot abridge, either by law or by judicial interpretation, without due process. Though the scope of the term differs between countries, civil liberties may include the freedom of conscience, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, the right to security and liberty, freedom of speech, the right to privacy, the right to equal treatment under the law and due process, the right to a fair trial, and the right to life. Other civil liberties include the right to own property, the right to defend oneself, and the right to bodily integrity

See, I like things to make sense. For example, the phrase "rights to bodily integrity" directly implies rights to sound health. However, I have noticed other's mileage tending to bias toward nonsense at least once or twice. That is not my fault.

United States[edit]
The United States Constitution does not contain any specific provisions regarding the rights one has with respect to his or her physical body or the specific extent to which the state can act upon bodies.[12] However, the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld right to privacy, which, as articulated by Julie Lane, often protects rights to bodily integrity. In Griswold v. Connecticut (1965) the Court supported women's rights to obtain birth control (and thus, retain reproductive autonomy) without marital consent. Similarly, a woman's right to privacy in obtaining abortions was protected by Roe v. Wade (1973). In McFall v. Shimp (1978), a Pennsylvania court ruled that a person cannot be forced to donate bone marrow, even if such a donation would save another person's life.

Conversely, the Supreme Court has also protected the right of governmental entities to infringe upon bodily integrity. Examples include laws prohibiting the use of drugs, laws prohibiting euthanasia, laws requiring the use of seatbelts and helmets, strip searches of prisoners, and forced blood tests.[13]

Now rephrase whatever TF you want. Just try to say something substantive that makes sense.

 

[dblack]

Here, you read it:

Civil liberties or personal freedoms are personal guarantees and freedoms that the government cannot abridge, either by law or by judicial interpretation, without due process. Though the scope of the term differs between countries, civil liberties may include the freedom of conscience, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, the right to security and liberty, freedom of speech, the right to privacy, the right to equal treatment under the law and due process, the right to a fair trial, and the right to life. Other civil liberties include the right to own property, the right to defend oneself, and the right to bodily integrity

See, I like things to make sense. For example, the phrase "rights to bodily integrity" directly implies rights to sound health. However, I have noticed other's mileage tending to bias toward nonsense at least once or twice. That is not my fault.

The definition you cited confirms it. Civil liberties have nothing to do with providing someone with goods and services.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Civil liberties have nothing to do with providing someone with goods and services.

See, I knew you could do it! Problem is it doesn't say that. In fact, many interpretations do indeed have govt ending up "providing someone with goods and services."

People are always saying "First, you gotta have your health", right? "Take care of yourself. Can't do anything for anyone else otherwise." Most obvious unspoken meaning: You can't work if you're "sick". Can't pay taxes if you can't work. Transitive: Can't pay taxes if you're sick. Now, would the balance of taxpayers(citizens) want you to keep paying your taxes? There's your true test. Yes? Or would they prefer you stayed sick so that either someone else's personal freedoms were being infringed upon to care for your sorry ass or you simply died from minimal healthcare neglect? There will end up being govt expenses either way and personal freedoms will be infringed upon. Go figure.

Where govt requires a "forced blood test" on a govt prisoner or employee, who "provides" that?

 

[dblack]

Civil liberties have nothing to do with providing someone with goods and services.

See, I knew you could do it! Problem is it doesn't say that. In fact, many interpretations do indeed have govt ending up "providing someone with goods and services."

Yes. Those are incorrect "interpretations".

People are always saying "First, you gotta have your health", right? "Take care of yourself. Can't do anything for anyone else otherwise." Most obvious unspoken meaning: You can't work if you're "sick". Can't pay taxes if you can't work. Transitive: Can't pay taxes if you're sick. Now, would the balance of taxpayers(citizens) want you to keep paying your taxes? There's your true test. Yes? Or would they prefer you stayed sick so that either someone else's personal freedoms were being infringed upon to care for your sorry ass or you simply died from minimal healthcare neglect? There will end up being govt expenses either way and personal freedoms will be infringed upon. Go figure.

Where govt requires a "forced blood test" on a govt prisoner or employee, who "provides" that?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Civil liberties aren't services provided by government. They are freedoms that government can't violate without a damned good reason.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Those are incorrect "interpretations".

Yeah, according to you. Big surprise.

Civil liberties aren't services provided by government. They are freedoms that government can't violate without a damned good reason.

And, of course, guaranteeing minimal healthcare (i.e. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) is no "damned good reason" to you. Again, big surprise.

 

[dblack]

Those are incorrect "interpretations".

Yeah, according to you. Big surprise.

Civil liberties aren't services provided by government. They are freedoms that government can't violate without a damned good reason.

And, of course, guaranteeing minimal healthcare (i.e. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) is no "damned good reason" to you. Again, big surprise.

That's not the point. It might be reason enough. I don't think so, but the only point I'm making here is that health care isn't a civil liberty. You're mixing up your terminology and it makes your arguments difficult to follow.

 

[Grumblenuts]

You're mixing up your terminology

And you've just been repeating yourself. Since you clearly don't think guaranteeing a minimal standard of healthcare should be considered a civil liberty (still no surprise), then what would you call it? Remember to be excruciatingly explicit so as not to mix up your terminology!

Note: In case you're thinking "entitlement" here's Google's primary definition:

en·ti·tle·ment
noun

1. the fact of having a right to something.

Now, since "the people" have a constitutionally guaranteed right to "assemble, and to petition the government for a redress".. perhaps "redress" is the term you're really after?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You're mixing up your terminology

And you've just been repeating yourself. Since you clearly don't think guaranteeing a minimal standard of healthcare should be considered a civil liberty (still no surprise), then what would you call it? Remember to be excruciatingly explicit so as not to mix up your terminology!

Note: In case you're thinking "entitlement" here's Google's primary definition:

en·ti·tle·ment
noun

1. the fact of having a right to something.

Now, since "the people" have a constitutionally guaranteed right to "assemble, and to petition the government for a redress".. perhaps "redress" is the term you're really after?

Since you clearly don't think guaranteeing a minimal standard of healthcare should be considered a civil liberty (still no surprise), then what would you call it?

Your personal responsibility.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Oh, I agree. Definitely your responsibility to petition govt like crazy.. for a guaranteed minimum standard of healthcare like the rest of the developed world enjoys. Especially those self-identifying as "patriot."