Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

[Chuckt]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

 

[theword]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

I'm a saint who understands the very strong delusion that blinds God's people today. Not even scientists know what they're looking at.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

It isn't true and it is a set up for a great disappointment later on.

 

[Chuckt]

Survey: Majority of Evangelical Leaders Believe in Rapture; Imminent Return of Jesus

Six in 10 evangelical leaders, or 61 percent, say they believe in the Rapture of the Church compared to 32 percent who say the End Times doesn't happen exactly this way, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life survey.

Survey: Majority of Evangelical Leaders Believe in Rapture; Imminent Return of Jesus

 

[The Irish Ram]

I believe we will be taken up and it won't be long. We are going to force Israel into a false peace treaty which will allow Israel to rebuild their beloved Temple. The anti-Christ then decalres himself God and defiles the Temple by sitting in the Holy of Holies. The Jews will revolt at the action, and all nations will come against them. Christ returns as the Lion of Judah to resolve the conflict. You and I are in agreement on the rapture Chuck. Let that shout, "come up hither" save us from the hell on earth that is coming.

 

[Chuckt]

You could tell them to get into the ark and they wouldn't listen.

Jesus already paid for our sins and The Tribulation is God's wrath on mankind. God does not need to punish us because Jesus already took our punishment.

The angel of death passed over the houses that had blood on the door of the Hebrews and only killed the firstborns of the Egyptians. The Hebrews were excluded from judgment.

I was thinking about Moses striking the rock twice and God was not pleased with Him. Jesus was smitten once so we don't have to be smitten a second time when He was already smitten on the cross.

If you read Revelation, the people don't repent which indicates that the ones suffering wrath are not Christian because Christians repent.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

If I believe in Him and deserve everlasting life and if God is kind to the unthankful and to the evil then I don't belong in the class that are judged during The Great Tribulation and neither do you, Irish Ram.

 

[Shaarona]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

Have you ever heard of Preterism or Historism?

 

[Chuckt]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

Have you ever heard of Preterism or Historism?

My stepmother had a book on Preterism from Church which is now mine and I started reading it and my reaction to it after reading the Bible was that Preterism is just crazy. I whole heartedly reject Preterism. I come to the conclusion that people go off track because different individuals have already gone off track on the salvation issue.

I don't study Historism that much but I understand tradition a little. I study the Bible more.

I debated Pastor Larry on the end times and he stopped debating me so I took it to his message board which is idle and basically no longer up.

If people want to look at the various issues of end time scenarios, they can get the book:

Last Days Handbook: Revised and Updated (A Complete Guide to the End Times). The older book says, "A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding the Different Views of Prophecy" by Robert P. Lightner.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=last%20days%20handbook]Amazon.com: last days handbook[/ame]

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1597520896/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=12PTHWFNV5N28RK36WCE&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846[/ame]

 

[Shaarona]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

Have you ever heard of Preterism or Historism?

My stepmother had a book on Preterism from Church which is now mine and I started reading it and my reaction to it after reading the Bible was that Preterism is just crazy. I whole heartedly reject Preterism. I come to the conclusion that people go off track because different individuals have already gone off track on the salvation issue.

I don't study Historism that much but I understand tradition a little. I study the Bible more.

I debated Pastor Larry on the end times and he stopped debating me so I took it to his message board which is idle and basically no longer up.

If people want to look at the various issues of end time scenarios, they can get the book:

Last Days Handbook: Revised and Updated (A Complete Guide to the End Times). The older book says, "A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding the Different Views of Prophecy" by Robert P. Lightner.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=last%20days%20handbook]Amazon.com: last days handbook[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1597520896/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=12PTHWFNV5N28RK36WCE&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846]Last Days Handbook: Revised and Updated: Robert P. Lightner: 9781597520898: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

The language of Revelation is apocryphal .. and it is a letter written to the 7 churches.. about what has already happened. Those people understood the symbolism and politics of the first century. No prophet or commentator wrote thousands of years in the future.. Most wrote about past events.

Its very clear that a generation is 40 years throughout the Bible.. and the Temple was destroyed a generation after the crucifixion. Israel is identified as the whore of Babylon.. The anti-Christ is either Nero or one of the Emperors..

The sword in the mouth of Jesus is the truth of the word. New Jerusalem is a spiritual city.

There is NO Temple because the Temple was destroyed before the letter was written. Jesus is the new Temple.

The tribulation was terrible and over within another 50 years. That's your famine, drought , war. I tend to think the tribulation was over when Masada fell.

Nero was dead but it was widely believed until the 5th century AD that he might return ...
There were many who believed in reincarnation.. They thought Nero would come back with an army of Parthians and start the persecutions all over again.

There is NO end of the world.. just the end of an age.. So.. the Kingdom of God is not the law of the Levites or the Temple sacrifices.

I think studying 1st century history helps us understand the symbolisms... perhaps not all of them, but we can try.

 

[hobelim]

Its very clear that a generation is 40 years throughout the Bible.. and the Temple was destroyed a generation after the crucifixion. Israel is identified as the whore of Babylon.. The anti-Christ is either Nero or one of the Emperors..

The sword in the mouth of Jesus is the truth of the word.

The whore of Babylon, drunk on the blood of Gods people, who rides a scarlet beast that sits on seven hills stands for the Church of Rome, not Israel.

And this is the sword that Jesus said he came to bring, the sword that came out of his mouth to smite the nations in revelation 19:15;



"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them." Jeremiah 25:15


and judging by the disturbing effects it has on believers it sure looks like the sword is a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine.

"Take this cup of wine and drink from it, this is a cup of my blood, the blood of the covenant."






"Just art thou in these thy judgments, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink"

 

[Chuckt]

Have you ever heard of Preterism or Historism?

My stepmother had a book on Preterism from Church which is now mine and I started reading it and my reaction to it after reading the Bible was that Preterism is just crazy. I whole heartedly reject Preterism. I come to the conclusion that people go off track because different individuals have already gone off track on the salvation issue.

I don't study Historism that much but I understand tradition a little. I study the Bible more.

I debated Pastor Larry on the end times and he stopped debating me so I took it to his message board which is idle and basically no longer up.

If people want to look at the various issues of end time scenarios, they can get the book:

Last Days Handbook: Revised and Updated (A Complete Guide to the End Times). The older book says, "A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding the Different Views of Prophecy" by Robert P. Lightner.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=last%20days%20handbook]Amazon.com: last days handbook[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1597520896/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=12PTHWFNV5N28RK36WCE&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846]Last Days Handbook: Revised and Updated: Robert P. Lightner: 9781597520898: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

The language of Revelation is apocryphal .. and it is a letter written to the 7 churches.. about what has already happened. Those people understood the symbolism and politics of the first century. No prophet or commentator wrote thousands of years in the future.. Most wrote about past events.

Its very clear that a generation is 40 years throughout the Bible.. and the Temple was destroyed a generation after the crucifixion. Israel is identified as the whore of Babylon.. The anti-Christ is either Nero or one of the Emperors..

I don't share your sentiments nor would we agree about Israel.

Zechariah 2:8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After the Glorious One has sent me against the nations that have plundered you--for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye--

 

[Shaarona]

My stepmother had a book on Preterism from Church which is now mine and I started reading it and my reaction to it after reading the Bible was that Preterism is just crazy. I whole heartedly reject Preterism. I come to the conclusion that people go off track because different individuals have already gone off track on the salvation issue.

I don't study Historism that much but I understand tradition a little. I study the Bible more.

I debated Pastor Larry on the end times and he stopped debating me so I took it to his message board which is idle and basically no longer up.

If people want to look at the various issues of end time scenarios, they can get the book:

Last Days Handbook: Revised and Updated (A Complete Guide to the End Times). The older book says, "A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding the Different Views of Prophecy" by Robert P. Lightner.

Amazon.com: last days handbook

Last Days Handbook: Revised and Updated: Robert P. Lightner: 9781597520898: Amazon.com: Books

The language of Revelation is apocryphal .. and it is a letter written to the 7 churches.. about what has already happened. Those people understood the symbolism and politics of the first century. No prophet or commentator wrote thousands of years in the future.. Most wrote about past events.

Its very clear that a generation is 40 years throughout the Bible.. and the Temple was destroyed a generation after the crucifixion. Israel is identified as the whore of Babylon.. The anti-Christ is either Nero or one of the Emperors..

I don't share your sentiments nor would we agree about Israel.

Zechariah 2:8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After the Glorious One has sent me against the nations that have plundered you--for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye--

Go back to references to the fig tree (Israel) .. which blooms twice a year in Palestine.. Then go to the story of good figs and bad figs.. The good figs were exiled in Babylon.

The OT is a fiction about the history of the Hebrews and their relationship with God. Most of it is borrowed from Sumer and the Ugarit (north coast Cannanites). The stories are about identity.. to set them apart... just as the laws and rituals invented by the Levites are to set them apart. Even many of the Psalms were borrowed from the Ugarit.

The short, comical novella of Jonah is about xenophobia and God's love for the people of Nineveh .

The themes repeat.. disobedience.. mercy and redemption.

 

[Chuckt]

The language of Revelation is apocryphal .. and it is a letter written to the 7 churches.. about what has already happened. Those people understood the symbolism and politics of the first century. No prophet or commentator wrote thousands of years in the future.. Most wrote about past events.

Its very clear that a generation is 40 years throughout the Bible.. and the Temple was destroyed a generation after the crucifixion. Israel is identified as the whore of Babylon.. The anti-Christ is either Nero or one of the Emperors..

I don't share your sentiments nor would we agree about Israel.

Zechariah 2:8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After the Glorious One has sent me against the nations that have plundered you--for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye--

Go back to references to the fig tree (Israel) .. which blooms twice a year in Palestine.. Then go to the story of good figs and bad figs.. The good figs were exiled in Babylon.

The OT is a fiction about the history of the Hebrews and their relationship with God. Most of it is borrowed from Sumer and the Ugarit (north coast Cannanites). The stories are about identity.. to set them apart... just as the laws and rituals invented by the Levites are to set them apart. Even many of the Psalms were borrowed from the Ugarit.

The short, comical novella of Jonah is about xenophobia and God's love for the people of Nineveh .

The themes repeat.. disobedience.. mercy and redemption.

I would prefer you and others to study this link until I have time to discuss it.

What is the whore of Babylon / mystery Babylon?

 

[Shaarona]

I don't share your sentiments nor would we agree about Israel.

Zechariah 2:8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After the Glorious One has sent me against the nations that have plundered you--for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye--

Go back to references to the fig tree (Israel) .. which blooms twice a year in Palestine.. Then go to the story of good figs and bad figs.. The good figs were exiled in Babylon.

The OT is a fiction about the history of the Hebrews and their relationship with God. Most of it is borrowed from Sumer and the Ugarit (north coast Cannanites). The stories are about identity.. to set them apart... just as the laws and rituals invented by the Levites are to set them apart. Even many of the Psalms were borrowed from the Ugarit.

The short, comical novella of Jonah is about xenophobia and God's love for the people of Nineveh .

The themes repeat.. disobedience.. mercy and redemption.

I would prefer you and others to study this link until I have time to discuss it.

What is the whore of Babylon / mystery Babylon?

There was no Exodus as described in scripture. Sinai was controlled by Egypt and couldn't support 2 million people and their livestock. Its didactic literature.

 

[Chuckt]

Go back to references to the fig tree (Israel) .. which blooms twice a year in Palestine.. Then go to the story of good figs and bad figs.. The good figs were exiled in Babylon.

The OT is a fiction about the history of the Hebrews and their relationship with God. Most of it is borrowed from Sumer and the Ugarit (north coast Cannanites). The stories are about identity.. to set them apart... just as the laws and rituals invented by the Levites are to set them apart. Even many of the Psalms were borrowed from the Ugarit.

The short, comical novella of Jonah is about xenophobia and God's love for the people of Nineveh .

The themes repeat.. disobedience.. mercy and redemption.

I would prefer you and others to study this link until I have time to discuss it.

What is the whore of Babylon / mystery Babylon?

There was no Exodus as described in scripture. Sinai was controlled by Egypt and couldn't support 2 million people and their livestock. Its didactic literature.

Israel is too small to control the whole earth.

The personal final overthrow of the devil is described in Revelation 20:10; Revelation 17. and 18, are devoted to the description of the judgments of the two former - the world, in its character of the openly hostile persecutor of the Church of God; and the other portion of the ungodly who, while still professing Christianity, find excuses for conforming to the worship of the image of the beast. The first beast is, therefore, identical with Babylon, and represents, as we have seen, the openly hostile and persecuting world power of all ages, of which, in St. John's time, Rome was the foremost embodiment. The second beast is identical with the harlot, and represents faithless Christians, the apostate portion of the Church. The very raison d'etre of the Apocalypse is to deal with these two forms of evil; to declare the overthrow of the one, and to warn and, if possible, reclaim those under the influence of the other. In the latter case, the warning consists in setting forth the judgment in store for faithless Christians; and as this is the course pursued with the former also, the two merge into one, and indeed are declared to be one. The apostle in substance declares that, though there is a prima facie difference between the two forms of ungodliness, there is in reality no distinction to be made, but both are involved in one common final judgment. He thus twice solemnly asserts that the harlot is Babylon (vers. 5 and 18). The comments upon the following chapters will be based upon this hypothesis, the reasons for which will be brought out more clearly as we proceed.

Revelation 17 Pulpit Commentary

 

[JakeStarkey]

The doctrine of The Rapture is the creation of early 19th century British evangelicals.

You ask Christians in 70 AD, 700 AD, 1700 AD, that would accuse a person of heresy for believing that.

Correctly so.

 

[Chuckt]

The doctrine of The Rapture is the creation of early 19th century British evangelicals.

You ask Christians in 70 AD, 700 AD, 1700 AD, that would accuse a person of heresy for believing that.

Correctly so.

I don't think Christians before 70 or 300 A.D. would be accused of heresy for believing the Rapture. During the Middle Ages, they started accusing people of heresy for believing or teaching anything different than the Roman Catholic church taught.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The early church had their tribulations and we will have ours as well. No one is disappearing into a vapor at the first sign of trouble. The bible does not teach the rapture. Jesus said those that endure until the end the same shall be saved. Enduring until the end means just that. Until the end. You have to be here until the end to endure until the end. Hello out there. - Jeri

 

[daws101]

The early church had their tribulations and we will have ours as well. No one is disappearing into a vapor at the first sign of trouble. The bible does not teach the rapture. Jesus said those that endure until the end the same shall be saved. Enduring until the end means just that. Until the end. You have to be here until the end to endure until the end. Hello out there. - Jeri

how ambiguous of Jesus, or is that line taken out of context ?