Zone1 The 17 Points of the True Church of Jesus Christ

[alang1216]

You obviously do not understand revelation and how it works. There are instances where the scribe (Apostle) is giving their accounts of what they have witnessed. There are instances where the accounts are given to the Apostle to write down word for word as if the Lord was writing it. Then, there are also prophecies of future events given to the Apostle (prophet) to write down in their own language and understanding for them and the people. With this in mind, to understand the writings of scripture, the Holy Ghost is given to influence understanding that is not up for private interpretations. We may have different views based on our communication with the Godhead as we read and comprehend. Line upon line, precept upon precept…If you do so with real intent to know, without a double mindedness and with complete faith in Christ, you will receive truth and know what I know.

Because of the above, most of what seems to be contradictions are not and can be explained. Mostly from different perspectives and eyewitness accounts. When put together, the complete picture and understanding is received.

Because of your double minded behavior, no faith in Jesus Christ and evil motives, you cannot know the meaning of the scriptures and know they are the words of God.

I have no idea what double minded behavior is, but you are right that I have no faith in Jesus Christ, or anyone else for that matter, but I take issue with the 'evil' motives part. I don't hate Christians and the Mormons I've known are generally the nicest people I've ever met.

I only want to understand what is truth and what is fiction and feel that faith is a hinderance in that pursuit. I've made the study of Judaism and Christianity a hobby since their influence in the US is immense. I'm continually amazed how little most Christians know about their own scripture. (I haven't studied the Book of Mormon so I know little about it).

 

[Cougarbear]

I have no idea what double minded behavior is, but you are right that I have no faith in Jesus Christ, or anyone else for that matter, but I take issue with the 'evil' motives part. I don't hate Christians and the Mormons I've known are generally the nicest people I've ever met.

I only want to understand what is truth and what is fiction and feel that faith is a hinderance in that pursuit. I've made the study of Judaism and Christianity a hobby since their influence in the US is immense. I'm continually amazed how little most Christians know about their own scripture. (I haven't studied the Book of Mormon so I know little about it).

When you study the Bible with a goal of finding the truth but you have already rejected faith in God, I would question whether you are seeking the truth with an open mind. This would be an example of a double mind. It would be like trying to find the truth about the theory of relativity and already have rejected Albert Einstein. I would question your real intent.

You study religion as a hobby. How in the world would you ever come to the knowledge of faith in God by studying that way? Double mind and no real intent. Then, even though you don’t hate Jews or Christians (Mormons included) you attempt to tear down their love of God and their faith. It doesn’t seem like your are trying to correct their understanding of their doctrine and of their faith.

Does this help?

 

[surada]

When you study the Bible with a goal of finding the truth but you have already rejected faith in God, I would question whether you are seeking the truth with an open mind. This would be an example of a double mind. It would be like trying to find the truth about the theory of relativity and already have rejected Albert Einstein. I would question your real intent.

You study religion as a hobby. How in the world would you ever come to the knowledge of faith in God by studying that way? Double mind and no real intent. Then, even though you don’t hate Jews or Christians (Mormons included) you attempt to tear down their love of God and their faith. It doesn’t seem like your are trying to correct their understanding of their doctrine and of their faith.

Does this help?

How did the Mormons pick up on John Nelson Darby? That's not traditional Christianity.

 

[JustAGuy1]

The words may be from God but most Biblical scholars agree, they are not from Paul. Was Paul really taught by the Holy Ghost to change his style of writing?

Most? Too funny, no "most" do not.

 

[JustAGuy1]

I'm confused, is Ephesians the words of a man or the words of God. If they are the words of God I'd assume his style would not be changing over time. If they are the words of Paul, or whomever, inspired by God, they are an imperfect translation.

Odd that the Bible has errors contradictions between the Gospels if they were indeed the work of God. Also, there is nothing in them about science, technology, or geography that was not known by the writers at that time.

The Holy Spirit can "reveal" Scripture any way He pleases.

 

[surada]

Most? Too funny, no "most" do not.

Who was Paul's disciple? Wasn't it Timothy?

 

[surada]

Most? Too funny, no "most" do not.

Its important to note that Paul converted within a decade of the crucifixion, he knew the disciples of Jesus personally, he was a member of the first generation Church, and he was hand-picked by the disciples at Antioch to evangelize the Gentiles. His writings are indisputably the earliest in Christianity and even predate the hypothetical “Q” gospel (by at least a decade, if not more).

 

[Cougarbear]

How did the Mormons pick up on John Nelson Darby? That's not traditional Christianity.

They didn’t.

 

[alang1216]

When you study the Bible with a goal of finding the truth but you have already rejected faith in God, I would question whether you are seeking the truth with an open mind. This would be an example of a double mind. It would be like trying to find the truth about the theory of relativity and already have rejected Albert Einstein. I would question your real intent.

I would question your open mind since your faith, not your reason, tells you what is the truth. Turning your analogy back on you, I'd ask how could you accept the theory of relativity if you believe Newtonian physics are revealed truth?

You study religion as a hobby. How in the world would you ever come to the knowledge of faith in God by studying that way? Double mind and no real intent. Then, even though you don’t hate Jews or Christians (Mormons included) you attempt to tear down their love of God and their faith. It doesn’t seem like your are trying to correct their understanding of their doctrine and of their faith.

I, personally, don't believe in the supernatural but I don't question anyone's love of their God or their faith, only their understanding of history. The question of who wrote Ephesians is an historical question for me. You can extract whatever theology from it that you wish regardless of who wrote it.

Does this help?

Yes, thanks.

 

[alang1216]

Most? Too funny, no "most" do not.

Got anything more than your faith?

Bible scholar Raymond E. Brown asserts that about 80% of critical scholarship judges that Paul did not write Ephesians. Link

 

[SweetSue92]

Seventeen Points of the True Church – LDSminds

Seventeen Points of the True Church by Floyd Weston I had an experience as a young man that I shall never forget. At college one day, some friends and I heard

ldsminds.com

A more clear 17 Points of the True Chruch with Bible verses for fact checking​

Seventeen points of the True Church
Christ organized the Church. Eph. 4:11-14
The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ. Eph. 5:23
The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets. Eph. 4:11-14
The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church. Eph. 4: 11-14
The true church must claim divine authority. Heb. 5: 4-10
The true church must have no paid ministry. lsa. 45: 13 and 1 Peter 5:2
The true church must baptize by immersion. Matt. 3:13-16
The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:14- 17
The true church must practice divine healing. Mark 3:14-15
The true church must teach that God and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct individuals. John 17:11 and John 20:17
The true church must teach that God and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone. Luke 24:36 - 39 and Acts 1:9-11
The officers must be called by God. Heb. 5:4, Exodus 28:1, Exodus 40: 13- 16
The true church must claim revelation from God. Amos 3:7
The true church must be a missionary church. Matt. 28:19-20
The true church must be a restored church. Acts 3:19- 20
The true church must practice baptism for the dead. 1 Cor. 15: 16 and 29
By their fruits ye shall know them. Matt 7: 20
Why are these things important? Hebrews 13:8

Joseph Smith, the con artist and philanderer, has nothing to do with this.

 

[alang1216]

The Holy Spirit can "reveal" Scripture any way He pleases.

No doubt, but that means we don't have an easy way to know what has been revealed and what has been fabricated. The Book of Mormon for instance, revealed or fabricated? How do we know?

 

[Cougarbear]

I would question your open mind since your faith, not your reason, tells you what is the truth. Turning your analogy back on you, I'd ask how could you accept the theory of relativity if you believe Newtonian physics are revealed truth?


I, personally, don't believe in the supernatural but I don't question anyone's love of their God or their faith, only their understanding of history. The question of who wrote Ephesians is an historical question for me. You can extract whatever theology from it that you wish regardless of who wrote it.


Yes, thanks.

You simply do not know the process with gaining a testimony for anything like developing faith in God, is a particular book a book of true scripture, is Joseph Smith a Prophet, is Jesus Christ Father in Heaven’s Son and a God…?
All children in the Church and all converts are asked to read, study, meditate on what they read and study, pray, and wait for an answer from the Holy Ghost. Do these with real intent to know and without a double mind. So, we aren’t told what and how to think. That’s why we have three degrees of glory to be resurrected to. Because not everyone will do all this and will not follow through with their testimonies they receive.

 

[Cougarbear]

Joseph Smith, the con artist and philanderer, has nothing to do with this.

That made no sense…Are you drunk?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

No doubt, but that means we don't have an easy way to know what has been revealed and what has been fabricated. The Book of Mormon for instance, revealed or fabricated? How do we know?

You ask God for guidance; you pray and wait for an answer.

 

[alang1216]

You simply do not know the process with gaining a testimony for anything like developing faith in God, is a particular book a book of true scripture, is Joseph Smith a Prophet, is Jesus Christ Father in Heaven’s Son and a God…?

And I'd be the first to admit it.

All children in the Church and all converts are asked to read, study, meditate on what they read and study, pray, and wait for an answer from the Holy Ghost. Do these with real intent to know and without a double mind. So, we aren’t told what and how to think. That’s why we have three degrees of glory to be resurrected to. Because not everyone will do all this and will not follow through with their testimonies they receive.

You aren’t told what and how to think but, since you're already in the Church, you already know what and how to think. Since interfaith conversions are rare, I'm guessing the Holy Ghost almost always tells Mormons to stay Mormon, Catholics to stay Catholic, Greek Orthodox Christians to stay Greek Orthodox Christian, etc. Curious.

 

[alang1216]

You ask God for guidance; you pray and wait for an answer.

Does everyone get the same answer? Since there are so many Christian churches, I'd guess the answer is no.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And I'd be the first to admit it.


You aren’t told what and how to think but, since you're already in the Church, you already know what and how to think. Since interfaith conversions are rare, I'm guessing the Holy Ghost almost always tells Mormons to stay Mormon, Catholics to stay Catholic, Greek Orthodox Christians to stay Greek Orthodox Christian, etc. Curious.

Millions of converts to Latter day Saints. I joined in 1979

 

[alang1216]

Millions of converts to Latter day Saints. I joined in 1979

Whatever works for you but I believe you are in the minority. Most Americans stay in the church of their parents.

 

[Meriweather]

Does everyone get the same answer? Since there are so many Christian churches, I'd guess the answer is no.

Whatever works for you but I believe you are in the minority. Most Americans stay in the church of their parents.

Looking forward...what is the next best "thing". It's like a virus. Martin Luther was once the "next best thing." Then Joseph Smith became the "next best thing".

Then there is the other "virus"...The past. Catholic and Orthodox always return to, "How did Jesus and the original Apostles" ... parents ... do this?

You also mentioned how little people of faith read and understand their own books. Rather than work through all the past material, it is easier to just go on to the "next best thing". Even when that next best thing is a troubled priest or a con man. This is why the Catholic and Orthodox churches remain strong. We do the reverse, go back to Jesus and the early Church--and once we have a better understanding of that, we tend to go back even further--The Old Testament.

This explains the lack of unification: People choose opposite directions.