Evangelicals and Trump

Andylusion

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# reply to #913.1
Let's even pretend that every single person in government in 1776, was an avowed Unitarian, and John Adams wrote instead that the founding principals were not Christian, and were Unitarian instead.

What difference does that make to us today?
Then the actual lie that you are defending would easily be rejected and not exist today.

This is the lie. Don’t substitute your own words. Read it as it is so you can eventually come to understand why it is a lie and why it matters today.

It is a lie when 21st Century white evangelical Protestant Christians tell you that America was founded as a sin and salvation Christian NATION.

The actual shorter version slogan is a lie too:

America was founded as a Christian NATION.

Adams was not a sin and salvation believing Christian in 1787. Are you a sin and salvation believing Christian in 2020? It matters. How about a straight yes or no answer?





Thethe actual lie that you are defending would easily rejected
But I just posted clear undeniable truth, straight from the words of one of the founding fathers, that said their basis for designing this country, was Christian belief.

So... you seem to be splitting hairs on something that doesn't matter.

Adams was not a sin and salvation believing Christian in 1787.

Again, does not matter.

This is like saying I designed a car that is not based on the principals that were pioneered by Henry Ford, even though the fundamentals of my manufacturing, would be undeniably based Ford's mass manufacturing methods.

Just because I didn't base my production facility directly on the design documents of the Model T, doesn't mean that the core fundamental principals are not the same.

They are the same.

The Declaration of Independence says openly "rights endowed by our creator". Those rights, were the fundamental basis of the Constitution.

When the Declaration of Independence says "our creator" who are they referring to?

Even congregationalists, believed in the Christian G-d. They just didn't believe in the 3-in-1 Trinity, that included Jesus as the Son of G-d.

So there really is no way to look at the founding of this country, and not conclude that is was based on fundamental Christian ideology. At least not if you are honest.
 
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Andylusion

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Rev Wright was anti-American, because he said anti-American things repeatedly.
For the record “what anti-American things?

Start with:

"The government gives them [African Americans] the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America,"

Pretty clear anti-American statement.
 

NotfooledbyW

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You realize that by calling others racists, that by definition makes you not meek?
How so? When anyone uses racist Language like calling a black preacher’s Religion anti-American should we remain meek and hide and ignore it?
 

NotfooledbyW

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The Declaration of Independence says openly "rights endowed by our creator". Th
was Jesus Christ our creator.

We are talking about the specific “founded as a Christian Nation” lie.

why post evidence that has no connection?

Do you still not understand what we are talking about here.
 

Andylusion

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#919 reply to #913.1
Adams was not a sin and salvation believing Christian in 1787. Are you a sin and salvation believing Christian in 2020? It matters. How about a straight yes or no answer?
I missed this, so I'll answer it separately.

If you are asking me, if I believe in Sin and Salvation Christianity, then yes of course. I believe what the Bible says.

As for what John Adams believed, I can't really answer that, because I wasn't there, and didn't go to his church.

I do know for a fact, that he was a faithful member, and completely believed in the Christian G-d.


What is interesting about the UU church, is that they do talk about sin. They do talk about acting better. They do cite Adam and Eve, and other passages in the Bible, which doesn't surprise me since most of the core fundamentals of Christianity, to do admit to.

So it is possible that on some level, John Adams may have believed in sin and salvation. We don't know. Unfortunately, you can't assume everything about a person, due to the denomination.

Some things, but not everything.[/QUOTE]
 
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Andylusion

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You realize that by calling others racists, that by definition makes you not meek?
How so? When anyone uses racist Language like calling a black preacher’s Religion anti-American should we remain meek and hide and ignore it?
MEEK
adjective
adjective: meek; comparative adjective: meeker; superlative adjective: meekest

  1. quiet, gentle, and easily imposed on; submissive.

So.... no. If you want to be quiet, gentle, and imposed on, and submissive, you can't really be screaming that American is evil and racists. Especially when the claims are not even true.
 

NotfooledbyW

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Rev Wright was anti-American, because he said anti-American things repeatedly.
For the record “what anti-American things?

Start with:

"The government gives them [African Americans] the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America,"

Pretty clear anti-American statement.
No it’s not.

it’s anti-what he sees as wrong with America. Is he supposed to say God Bless America for invading Iraq based on lies as Trump says?

Americans even Rev Wright can be wrong about what’s wrong in America, but it’s not anti-American to go public on it.
 

Andylusion

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The Declaration of Independence says openly "rights endowed by our creator". Th
was Jesus Christ our creator.

We are talking about the specific “founded as a Christian Nation” lie.

why post evidence that has no connection?

Do you still not understand what we are talking about here.
Well I don't know what to say to that, because when the entire basis for forming a new country was that we have rights endowed by our creator, which everyone admits was the Christian G-d.... to me that means our founding core basis for creating this country was the Christian G-d.

So.... I guess we agree to disagree? Because there is no logical answer, to something that sounds illogical. I can't even identify with your thought pattern when people say "We are endowed by our creator" as the basis for independence, and yet say obviously our creator is....... what? The tooth fairy?

What do you think they had in mind, when the smallest number of people were full deists, and most believed in Christianity, and Adams directly says the basis for the country was Christian core principals?
 
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Andylusion

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Rev Wright was anti-American, because he said anti-American things repeatedly.
For the record “what anti-American things?

Start with:

"The government gives them [African Americans] the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America,"

Pretty clear anti-American statement.
No it’s not.

it’s anti-what he sees as wrong with America. Is he supposed to say God Bless America for invading Iraq based on lies as Trump says?

Americans even Rev Wright can be wrong about what’s wrong in America, but it’s not anti-American to go public on it.
Read the rest of the article. He has a long history of Anti-American statements.

And by the way, Bush didn't lie. So he wasn't even correct in his critique.

And even if he was, which he isn't.... if he was, you can criticize bad policies without saying "damn America".

I'm sorry, but you are just wrong on this. You make statements like that, then you are anti-America. If you deny that, that just makes you wrong.

If I said "NotfooledbyW is wrong on this topic, and he deserves to go to hell".

Would you conclude that I was just making constructive criticism, but not really anti-NotfooledbyW?

No, you would rightly think that I hated you, based on my words. Well when you say 'damn America', people are going to rightly conclude you are anti-America. Because you are. Again, you deny that, you are just wrong.
 

NotfooledbyW

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But I just posted clear undeniable truth, straight from the words of one of the founding fathers, that said their basis for designing this country, was Christian belief.
And I believe you just told me that atheists and evangelical Christians believe the same things.

IF SO I’m not dealing with a rational being here.

If your world has atheist Christians in it I don’t know why we should bother having so many words.
 
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Andylusion

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But I just posted clear undeniable truth, straight from the words of one of the founding fathers, that said their basis for designing this country, was Christian belief.
And I believe you just told me that atheists and evangelical Christians believe the same things.

IF SO I’m not dealing with a rational being here.

If your world has atheist Christians in it I don’t know why we shoulf bother having so many words.
Well first you have to be truthful about what you asked, and I answered.

You said, can an Atheist have some of the same values as a Christian. I said they can.

For example, I've been donating to Charity since I started working in high school.

I would assume..... that some Atheists also believe in helping the poor.

How does that make me not rational?

Did I ever say you can be an atheist and a Christian? No. I did not.

So the first thing you need to do before making posts, is be truthful.
 

Andylusion

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Bush didn't lie.
So Trump lied.

I agree with trump in that one.
Sure. But Bush did not lie. They had a congressional investigation, headed by Rockefeller on the statements made by Bush leading into the Iraq war, and concluded that all the statements made by Bush were justified by the evidence we had at the time.

I have the report on my computer. They did a through job.
 

NotfooledbyW

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#932 reply to # 930

Well first you have to be truthful about what you asked, and I answered.

You said, can an Atheist have some of the same values as a Christian. I said they can.
Not exactly Mr. Truthful.

In Post #916 I asked you about the core fundamentals of Christianity that John Adams was referring to? ... and I asked if an atheist can have the same core Christian principles as you..

Try putting in your own words what you think are the core fundamentals of Christianity that John Adams was referring to?

Can an atheist have the same core Christian principles as you.
You changed it to, “can an Atheist have some of the same values as a Christian.”

You did not actually answer my questions.

Post #927

But I just posted clear undeniable truth, straight from the words of one of the founding fathers, that said their basis for designing this country, was Christian belief
In Post #927 you went to Adams saying Christian Belief was the basis for designing the country..

So I thought you were saying atheists had the same beliefs as Christians when I wrote:

##930! reply to #927

And I believe you just told me that atheists and evangelical Christians believe the same things.
#932 reply to #927

Did I ever say you can be an atheist and a Christian? No. I did not.
As you can see I never said you did.

I am truthful.

Is this what you think John Adans is referring to when he wrote the phrase the general Principles of Christianity?

Post #918
As it relates to the topic at hand, I would say freedom, equality under the law, property rights, and so on.
Those principles fit better under Adam’s non-religion related general Principles of English and American Liberty,

Post #886
So let's start with John Adams, since you started there.

Because in his own words, the founding principals were Christianity, and he believed in those Christian Principles.
And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.
 
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Correll

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Post#871 AndyAndy for evidence
Third, I would be very interested in what evidence you have that this country was not created by white Christians.

Do you have any evidence to support that at all?
Post#875 I ask for clarification
Is it your understanding or argument that America’s founding fathers were all entirely white male Protestant Christian or something other than that?
Post#879 AndyAndy already betrays reason
I don't even think it matters.
Why have a discussion with someone about the 21st Century Christian urge to identify the 18th Century United States of America as to have been founded as a Christian Nation when said person, perhaps a Christian, says he doesn’t think evidence that a large number of our founding fathers openly rejected the sin and salvation Christian religious faith that has become the belief system of all the 21st Century Christians?

So Andylusion are you interested in the evidence you requested, because the evidence does not end with our second President John Adams who was a Unitarian who openly in written letters recorded his strong rejection of sin and salvation Christianity..

Knowing his rejection of sin and salvation Christianity and his religious self-identity as a Unitarian, why do you have an urge to identify America as founded as a sin and salvation Christian Nation.

Should not the urge be at least in part to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation since the evidence has shown that to be more accurate?

By the way my wife and were married in a Unitarian Church 20 years ago next month.

My comfort with and respect for the Unitarian Church and it’s influence on the Revolution and Constitution does not give me an urge to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation. That would be wrong because America was not founded with a religious preference to sin and salvation Christianity or any other religion or no religious belief at all.
I already proved conclusively from John Adams own words, that your claim that the country was not founded on Christian principals, is undeniable.

Now you want to move on, when you already lost the argument?

Ok, feel free. What's next?

My comfort with and respect for the Unitarian Church and it’s influence on the Revolution and Constitution does not give me an urge to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation.

To which my answer is.... so what? Who cares? Let's even pretend that every single person in government in 1776, was an avowed Unitarian, and John Adams wrote instead that the founding principals were not Christian, and were Unitarian instead.

What difference does that make to us today?

None? Then why does it matter so much to you, to deny what is clearly documented and true? What exactly is it, that you think you are arguing against?

He is ginning up an argument, so that he has an excuse to attack Christians.

So that he can spin his attacks as standing up to "White Christian Nationalists" instead of what it really is, ie, his anti-Christian bigotry.
 

Correll

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Post #
#106.1 reply to #94
3. The former service of Wright does not give him a pass for his racism, marxism or anti-Americanism.

4. My opinion of Wright's "church" is supported by Wright's own racist and anti-American words, and his admission that his church was Black Liberation Theology.

6. Fuck you for calling me wacist.
#106.1 reply to #94

If you dont want to be a racist don’t call Obama’s Christian Church and Preacher anti-American because you don’t like Black Americans having their own Christian Theology that does not match what your idea of being a cultural Christian and proper patriot might be.

I explained my reasons for calling his church anti-American, and it was not the reasons you are claiming it was. So, that is you lying THREE times at once. ONE LIE, about what I said, LIE TWO, to call me wacist based on your made up shit, and LIE THREE, because I have no problem with blacks or anyone else having a different view of Christian Theology.


You must be terrified of my arguments and intellect, to have to lie so much, to run away from what I actually said.

it is not anti-American to believe whatever one wants to believe about what it was that Jesus the man, or Jesus the savior and Son of God taught about addressing poverty and oppression and how the unTrump meek are to go about inherenting the earth.
Correct. That is why I did not base my point about their anti-Americanism on those points. You are spending a lot of time and energy ignoring and/or lying about what I say. My words must be hitting your fragile world view like a freaking freight train.


Rev Wight's anti-Americanism is clear, from his own words and the teachings of BLT. Obama openly proclaimed that he found Wright's words very attractive, to the point that he "converted" to his church.


You dems elected an Anti-American to be President of the United States. GOOD MOVE.
 

Correll

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The Declaration of Independence says openly "rights endowed by our creator". Th
was Jesus Christ our creator.

We are talking about the specific “founded as a Christian Nation” lie.

why post evidence that has no connection?

Do you still not understand what we are talking about here.
Well I don't know what to say to that, because when the entire basis for forming a new country was that we have rights endowed by our creator, which everyone admits was the Christian G-d.... to me that means our founding core basis for creating this country was the Christian G-d.

So.... I guess we agree to disagree? Because there is no logical answer, to something that sounds illogical. I can't even identify with your thought pattern when people say "We are endowed by our creator" as the basis for independence, and yet say obviously our creator is....... what? The tooth fairy?

What do you think they had in mind, when the smallest number of people were full deists, and most believed in Christianity, and Adams directly says the basis for the country was Christian core principals?

He is not making sense. He is jumping around as a form of stonewalling.

Thanks for the help with this guy. He's been very evasive and dishonest.
 

Correll

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If I said "NotfooledbyW is wrong on this topic, and he deserves to go to hell".

Would you conclude that I was just making constructive criticism, but not really anti-NotfooledbyW?

Brilliantly crafted analogy.
 

Correll

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#932 reply to # 930

Well first you have to be truthful about what you asked, and I answered.

You said, can an Atheist have some of the same values as a Christian. I said they can.
Not exactly Mr. Truthful.

In Post #916 I asked you about the core fundamentals of Christianity that John Adams was referring to? ... and I asked if an atheist can have the same core Christian principles as you..

Try putting in your own words what you think are the core fundamentals of Christianity that John Adams was referring to?

Can an atheist have the same core Christian principles as you.
You changed it to, “can an Atheist have some of the same values as a Christian.”

You did not actually answer my questions.

Post #927

But I just posted clear undeniable truth, straight from the words of one of the founding fathers, that said their basis for designing this country, was Christian belief
In Post #927 you went to Adams saying Christian Belief was the basis for designing the country..

So I thought you were saying atheists had the same beliefs as Christians when I wrote:

##930! reply to #927

And I believe you just told me that atheists and evangelical Christians believe the same things.
#932 reply to #927

Did I ever say you can be an atheist and a Christian? No. I did not.
As you can see I never said you did.

I am truthful.

Is this what you think John Adans is referring to when he wrote the phrase the general Principles of Christianity?

Post #918
As it relates to the topic at hand, I would say freedom, equality under the law, property rights, and so on.
Those principles fit better under Adam’s non-religion related general Principles of English and American Liberty,

Post #886
So let's start with John Adams, since you started there.

Because in his own words, the founding principals were Christianity, and he believed in those Christian Principles.
And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

Sophist bullshit.
 

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